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Gavin Kisebach
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 Posted: Tue 27 Sep, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject: I33 translated? |
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Where does a chap acquire a translation of the I33 fettbuch, or does one exist? I'd sure like to study it, but I dont have time to learn old German. Has it ever been published? Bookstores are up to their eyeballs in translations of The Art of War and the Book of Five Rings, but I33 may as well have never existed from what I can tell. On the same note, what would be, in your humble opinion, a good book to study Tallhoffer? 
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Patrick Kelly
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Gavin Kisebach
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| Posted: Tue 27 Sep, 2005 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Perfect! Thankyou, what a great resource this is. I feel like I've leapt years ahead in months hanging out with all you fine gentlemen and ladies. 
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Sean Flynt
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 28 Sep, 2005 9:56 am Post subject: Re: I33 translated? |
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| Gavin Kisebach wrote: | | I'd sure like to study it, but I dont have time to learn old German. |
Slightly off topic, but the I.33 manuscript, being authored by a clergyman/men, is actually in Latin. Not that it matters, really: It's all Greek to me. 
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Wed 28 Sep, 2005 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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IT's also worth noting that Stephan Hand has revised a number of things since the companion came out. Not so many as to keep you from buying the book, but enough to make you want to buy Spada 2, in which the revisions are published.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Gavin Kisebach
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 3:30 am Post subject: |
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Bill
the ARMA has the whole thing photocopied on their website. It's grainy and impossible to read, but according to them it's (correct me if I'm reading this wrong) written in latin as well as german, though i dont know if just the technical terms are german, or if its mostly latin, or sort of rosetta-ish (hows that for a made up word).
I haven't purchased anything yet, as I've got a bad case of Fundsalow Disorder. very painful, brought on by binge spending. I was planning on buying one from Revival, as they also sell that talhoffer hammer I like so much 
I saw some pics of that in the MWAW article and it re-ignited my interest. 
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| Gavin Kisebach wrote: |
the ARMA has the whole thing photocopied on their website. It's grainy and impossible to read, but according to them it's (correct me if I'm reading this wrong) written in latin as well as german, though i dont know if just the technical terms are german, or if its mostly latin, or sort of rosetta-ish (hows that for a made up word). |
It is written in German and Latin yes.
As for Talhoffer, kind gentlemen in this thread have already pointed out the Marc Rector translation. As it is one of the few published translations of Talhoffer's works, you could start there. However, you have to be aware of that the Rector translation contains some things that are a bit off mark. Just a word of caution for when you decide to acquire it. Also: Talhoffer is actually at his most comphrehensible when you study ALL of his fechtbücher.
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Martin Wallgren
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Gavin Kisebach wrote: | | I haven't purchased anything yet, as I've got a bad case of Fundsalow Disorder. very painful, brought on by binge spending. |
That's awesome - the term, not the condition. Happens to us all, from time to time. Hopefully, it will clear up for you fairly quickly. This morning, I woke up and found that I had a wicked case of "Dragon Ass" - just can't get going this morning, despite coffee and nicotine.
| Gavin Kisebach wrote: | | I was planning on buying one from Revival, as they also sell that talhoffer hammer I like so much |
If you get that hammer, I absotively, posilutely need a blunt, no BS review of it. They have that hammer and a rondel that can be used for fairly safe training but would fairly closely simulate the weapons.
Oh, and getting back to the original topic - I:33 is pretty intriguing to watch. I have the book from Revival, and it is actually a fun read and exercise for the mind - at least for me. It's not in my primary interest, being more drawn to longswords and rapiers; none the less, I do pick it up surprisingly often. I have not seen any further updates or revisions, but these would be worthwhile, too, I am sure.
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 8:23 am Post subject: |
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I also have the Revival book and I think I am starting to understand the general principals but these books are a difficult learning curve if one has a ZERO background in fencing.
Until one can internalize the language ( Names of moves and guard, wards etc... ) a bit, I find I have to re-read the text quite a few time before I can follow the explanations and I have to go back to the definitions. ( What did that word mean again.  )
Now, so far I have only given the text a casual read and it would take some real effort on my part to progress. ( As in most things ! )
Actually seeing some of the moves in a DVD would really help getting a feel for the rhythm of the action.
But this isn't a criticism of the books dealing with any martial arts but only that seeing is " understanding " and words and still pictures can only do so much.
Actually someone with a lot of previous experience can probably see what is being described in their heads just from reading the text. I guess there is just no easy way " IN " for the beginner. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Actually someone with a lot of previous experience can probably see what is being described in their heads just from reading the text. I guess there is just no easy way " IN " for the beginner. |
Yeah, it really is hard to do without some in-person training at first. If you ever get the chance to go to any seminars or any of the big events, such as WMAW, you'll be amazed at just how much you'll learn in a very small time. Do you have training partners? If so, you should consider pooling your resources and getting someone to come out and teach you. Stephen Hand would be ideal, but you'd either have to catch him while he's in the states, or else pay extra for his travel expenses, I'm sure. Still, it's worth looking into.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | Yeah, it really is hard to do without some in-person training at first. If you ever get the chance to go to any seminars or any of the big events, such as WMAW, you'll be amazed at just how much you'll learn in a very small time. |
I strongly agree. While in Wisconsin last year I attended a workshop given by Bob Charron. In that all too short hour I learned more on the longsword's use than I probably have in the last ten years of solo study. These books are a huge benifit to those of us who have to train alone but they can only take us so far.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2005 9:57 am Post subject: |
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I have the " Fiore Longsword " seminar DVD from Chivalry Bookshelf that I have viewed and it does feel a lot like being at a seminar class: There are some production value issues that would be nitpicking to get into but that are acceptable in the context of shooting a live event without the option of doing numerous takes or inserting extra content.
The audio alone is worth the cost of the DVD. After 25 years of working in industrial A.V. television production there could be a few ways to do a inexpensive video shoot, that if I had been there, I could have suggested that would not have increased cost by much. I can also appreciate the problems of doing an event shoot like this were you cannot get in the way of the event and have to jump around and try to get the best coverage you can when you are there essentially as another participant and cannot control or pre-script the shoot.
( Re-shoot for inserts of close-ups in part to add content and to cover sections were the camera shot was jerky or not focused on the action described: I've done enough of these kind of shoots to know that a 6 hour shoot with a small crew or a crew of ONE is a big challenge. )
I also have " The Longsword of Johannes Liechtenauer " DVD that I haven't viewed yet, so I can't comment yet, but it is supposed to be very well done according to others who have seen it.
To get back to the topic: There are a couple of groups giving sword training locally. I would have to check them out to see what their focus is: WMA or stage fighting ? The local newspaper article I read seems to indicate the former with one group.
I guess it depend if I decide to actually practice WMA or simply satisfy my curiosity without active participation for now.
But, in any case, thanks for the good advice.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 30 Sep, 2005 7:48 am Post subject: |
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The poleaxe discussion has been seperated into its own thread.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Kel Rekuta
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| Posted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
To get back to the topic: There are a couple of groups giving sword training locally. I would have to check them out to see what their focus is: WMA or stage fighting ? The local newspaper article I read seems to indicate the former with one group.
I guess it depend if I decide to actually practice WMA or simply satisfy my curiosity without active participation for now.
But, in any case, thanks for the good advice. |
Hello Jean,
A couple years ago I visited La Compagnie Medievale (http://www.nemesis.qc.ca/ciemedievale/bienv.html) during the filming of Timeline in and around Montreal. Although a couple of them expressed an interest in MS I.33 as a martial art, the main theme of their work is "performance" combat. There are a few individuals studying WMA in area of Hull, IIRC. You might be able to contact them through the Ottawa Medieval Sword Guild, with whom they train on occasion. The other Quebec groups that I've heard of seem to practice performance oriented swordplay or living history protrayals where safety is more important than martial intent.
Please correct me if you find more accurate information. We (at AEMMA) are frequently asked to refer people in Quebec. We haven't met enough of our colleagues in Quebec to be sure what's happening there.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Kel;
Thanks for the information, it's very nice of you.
One group near my home ( Very near same " Quartier " ) is called " LES DUALISTES " the local neighbourhood paper had an article on them this summer: They mention using historical documents as the sources of their techniques without naming the specifics.
They include polearms in their courses, the courses include dagger, sword, short sword, spears and other polearms: So it does seem on paper that they are involved with real WMA as opposed to the more theatrical styles of training: How good are they or how competent or how enjoyable the courses would be to take I don't know. Cost is also not mentioned.
Now, like I said I haven't made the commitment to actually DO some real training as opposed to just satisfying my intellectual curiosity.
Here is the information about them that I have if you want to look into this group and maybe establish contact with them:
LES DUALISTES, (514) 383-2193 the people mentioned in the article are: Patrick de Marchi, Yan Robidoux , Danni Carbonneau, they operate from a local community centre " LE CENTRE DE LOISIRS COMMUNAUTAIRES LAJEUNESSE. ( I would have to look up the address. ) No web site mentioned. ( This is in the northern end of the city in Montréal. )
I have no idea if they speak English ? If I contact them I'll let you know and if you do let me know.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Gavin Kisebach
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| Posted: Tue 04 Oct, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Obviously personal training is the way to go, but this is a challenge as the WMA spread and develop. Most likely the nearest practitioner to me is two hours away in Seattle, so for a couple of in person visits, I could buy a book. Gas aint cheap anymore. Of course this is typical of the front end reasearch costs of any new product, I suppose. I could wait for WMA to poliferate to the point that sparring partners can be found in every town and small city, but I might be old and grey by then (no offense to any of our esteemed moderators) Until then a book, and maybe a trip to a convention (if one ever gets in range) will have to suffice. 
There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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Stephen Hand
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| Posted: Thu 06 Oct, 2005 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Gavin,
I was actually teaching in Seattle two weekends ago. There's also the 4W event hosted by Academia Della Spada which I believe is in March next year.
Of course I recommend that you get Jeff's translation and Paul and my book. I alos highly recommend that you get Spada II, a collection of papers on swordsmanship topics. It contains many fascinating papers, but notably my paper on changes to my interpretation of the I.33 system. Interpretation is an ongoing journey without end.
All of these books are available from Chivalry Bookshelf. Please note that if you buy direct from Chivalry Bookshelf the authors and publisher get three times as much, which makes a considerable difference to the viability of a small startup publisher like CB, and to starving martial arts instructors like me. Amazon is good for buyers in the short term, but in the long term they're bad for small publishers and hence for niche markets like swordsmanship or arms and armour.
Jean, if you are interested in organising a seminar, I travel to North America once or twice a year to attend major conferences, and I always stay to give weekend seminars. If you or anyone else is interested, contact me at sjhand@bigpond.net.au
Cheers
Steve[/url]
Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield
Stoccata School of Defence
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Gavin Kisebach
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| Posted: Sun 09 Oct, 2005 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I just bought the The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship: A Facsimile & Translation of Europe's Oldest Personal Combat Treatise, Royal Armouries MS I.33 (Royal Armouries Monograph) AND Spada II, AND the Talhoffer hammer. They have some (apparently) lightly damaged books for a good discount. Great sight, but every time I go there there's this giant sucking sound that emanates from my wallet. Hmm. 
There are only two kinds of scholars; those who love ideas and those who hate them. ~ Emile Chartier
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