Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Revival.us zupparello? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Stirling Matheson





Joined: 12 Jan 2007

Posts: 36

PostPosted: Mon 10 Nov, 2008 9:45 pm    Post subject: Revival.us zupparello?         Reply with quote

I've been looking around for a review of this, but have not been able to find a real opinion. Does anybody have experience with the Revival.us zuparello? (http://revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=83)

Mostly I'm wondering how well it's padded. The pictures seem to make it look thin, but hopefully it would actually be thick enough to absorb a reasonable amount of force.

Thanks,
Stirling

Fac et Spera
Moderator - www.swordwiki.org
View user's profile Send private message
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,136

PostPosted: Mon 10 Nov, 2008 10:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I bought one and returned it immediately. The cut on the arm pits is very strangely designed, restricting movement. The shoulder area doesn't follow a natural shoulder line, either.

The padding is adequate. Not heavy duty, but decent enough for fencing against many weapon simulators. But for the price, it really needs to be redesigned to fit better before I'd recommend it.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Glennan Carnie




Location: UK
Joined: 23 Aug 2006

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 1:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The garment looks based on the pourpoint of Charles of Blois; particularly the grande assiette sleeve.

The design of the grande assiette allows for full freedom of movement for the arm - but ONLY if it is fitted directly to the wearer. It is a transitional design, starting with a simple rectangular tube sleeve, which is then cut and patched to allow movement for the arm and shoulder blade.

A correctly fitted grande assiette sleeve should fit almost skin tight but, because it is matched to the musculature and skeleton of the wearer it allows full movement (rather like a second skin!) without wrinkling or creasing - exactly what is needed for wear under armour.

I have had a grande assiette garment fitted to me. It took two extremely talented medieval sempsters two days to fit me. It's a very complicated process.

Unfortunately, because of its nature you can't really buy a grande assiette pourpoint off-the-shelf. The majority of those I have seen default to a curious conical sleeve that allows movement by being huge and baggy around the shoulder. This is incorrect.

I would say avoid anything resembling a Charles of Blois pourpoint unless it will be fitted to you by someone who knows what they are doing.
View user's profile Send private message
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,136

PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 5:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glennan is absolutely right. And this garment is a perfect example of an attempt at the grand assiette style that simply doesn't work.

Having said that, the Revival Clothing gambeson (not to be confused with Revival.us) is actually quite nice, and is off-the-rack. No, it isn't the same as having one custom fit to you, but it functions wonderfully, and allows complete range of movement. Its an excellent design for both Western Martial Arts practice as stand alone armour as well as for wearing underneath harness. (Though I wouldn't complain if it had more padding.) I never quite bought the hype until I wore one, and as soon as I tried one on, I threw the money down immediately. So it is possible to get an off-the-rack grand assiette styled coat, but not cheaply.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Glennan Carnie




Location: UK
Joined: 23 Aug 2006

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 6:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Revival Clothing gambeson sleeve is based on the later inset sleeve. This is the natural development from the grande assiette. The inset sleeve is relatively straightforward to produce to standard sizes and explains the far superior fit of their garment.
The inset sleeve appears to be a standard feature of doublets and under-armour garments for most of the 15th century. It seems to lose favour in the Tudor period, when the suit-type sleeve becomes predominant.

The principle of the inset sleeve type is that the entire arm sits within the sleeve; including the shoulder joint. If a 'modern' suit-cut sleeve is used the shoulder joint sits within the body of the garment, so that when you raise your arms the body of the garment lifts (not much fun if you've got it pointed to joined hose!) Many modern reproductions use a suit-type sleeve (because it looks 'right' to a modern-trained tailor) and these garments actually restrict your movement.

This is a very good point to look out for when purchasing a fighting garment. If the garment has a suit-type sleeve - that is, when you put it on, your shoulder joint is inside the body of the garment, not the sleeve - then the garment is unlikely to give you sufficient movement to fight.
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,083

PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 7:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have not seen this in person so cannot say it works or not. From Bill's post sounds like it might not.

You can see two types of padded garments from the 14th still existing. Both are different in a few ways likely having to do with the time they are from.

We have the Charles VI and the Charles de Blois. I thind to think the Charles VI are earlier and more military but that might just be me.

Here is the Charles VI.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p296/Forntid/jupon.jpg

It is rather simple. The sleeves attach to the body with no extra bits. It has good movement as long as done well

Here is the Charles de Blois
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p296/Fornt..._coat2.jpg

Personally it looks much later than when Charles died to me so I assume its a later bit of kit than the Charles VI.

You can pull of a nice well fit padded garment in both these ways, though if not fit well movement and such will be an issue. On the second one you can see well what Glennan is talking about having the sleeves come in.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Glennan Carnie




Location: UK
Joined: 23 Aug 2006

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 8:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The problem with these photos is you can't see the relative size of the garments.

To my eyes the Charles VI looks more like a typical gambeson; as often seen as an outer garment. The Charles du Blois, on the other hand looks very much more fitted; almost a proto-doublet. The Charles VI garment just looks bigger and bulkier. But without a direct side-by-side comparison it's difficult to say.

I agree the Charles du Blois is more likely a civilian garment, judging by its patterned silk shell. But then, you see similar-styled garments in other art in plainer materials (often white or grey; suggesting linen or fustian).

My personal view is this garment is one of the military-civilian-military fashion cycles: The improvement in armour (particularly plate) dictates the need for new, improved protective under-garments (I shall call this the 'pourpoint' after the Charles du Blois garment, even though it was probably called something completely different!); the wearing of the protective garments by nobility, when not in armour, starts to dictate court fashion (in particular, note the change in the male silhouette around the third quarter 14thC - the round, pidgeon breast and narrow waist); 'fashion' in the court begins to influence the look and style of armour.
View user's profile Send private message
Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 687

PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Glennan,

Actually, the Revival Clothing gambeson is a grand assiette sleeve, not a 15th c. inset.

What explains the better fit is that the RC one is a grand assiette, while the Revival.us one does not properly follow that pattern. None of which negates what Bill said - that if you want a perfect fit and perfect mobility, there's no substitute for a custom-made arming garment.

All the best,

Christian Tobler
Revival Clothing

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Glennan Carnie




Location: UK
Joined: 23 Aug 2006

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 10:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Actually, the Revival Clothing gambeson is a grand assiette sleeve, not a 15th c. inset.


Agreed. I stand corrected. Happy

It just doesn't follow the Charles du Blois pattern for the sleeve, based on what I can see from the website illustrations.
View user's profile Send private message
Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 687

PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Glennan,

No worries!

The sleeve isn't the Blois one exactly. If you check out the product page, we have various illustrations that inspired the final design.

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,083

PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 11:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glennan,

I thought I had told you this before so my bad. A friend of mine got to look at the Charles VI not long before it was restored and she said she does not think it was an over garment/jupon like padded armour for several reasons. First was she indicated the size would not have worked over any type of armour used at the time unless perhaps a very fine mail shirt. Also theree are two types of buttons used on the front along the torso and skirt indicating it was worn under. Next time you are around let me know and I can give you more details on her visit there. Before I spoke with her I thought the same but if it is too small to wear over not much else for it.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Bill Tsafa




Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 20 May 2004

Posts: 599

PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 11:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
I bought one and returned it immediately. The cut on the arm pits is very strangely designed, restricting movement. The shoulder area doesn't follow a natural shoulder line, either.

The padding is adequate. Not heavy duty, but decent enough for fencing against many weapon simulators. But for the price, it really needs to be redesigned to fit better before I'd recommend it.



Interesting. The Zuparello I tried on was too baggy in the armpits for me. It would have bunched up under my coat of plates. I think this is more an issue of our different body proportions. I am more barrel chested, I recall from meeting you that you are more slim. The Revival Clothing one fits me just perfect. In anycase, I think a person needs to try on any clothing to be sure it fits right.

No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle.
Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201
www.poconoshooting.com
www.poconogym.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Felix R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Reading list: 25 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 12:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello, does someone have some line drawings of the different types, especially on the inset sleves. I know the Grand Assiette style and the suit style but can´t imagine the inset style compared to the other two. Thanks
View user's profile Send private message
Michael B.




Location: Anchorage, AK
Joined: 18 Oct 2007

Posts: 340

PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I purchased the Revival US garment, and lucky me, it fit me to the tee, most people have an issue with it, but I lucked out. It's not very well padded (enough for light single sword work) but I put points on it and wear it under my harness, it works beautifully with no bunching or pulling. It does feel funny when you first put it on due to the sleeve design. I've been fighting in it for 6 months now with no issues.
Also, it's very form fitting, so it's best to be in shape when wearing it.

Also fight in a gambeson from Matuls, and have a custom one too, have one coming from Revival soon. Custom one is by far the best route to go though.

Michael B.

"In the sword you shall have trust and belief, so that blood runs not over your eyes..." Hans Tolhoffer
https://www.facebook.com/societyofmedievalmartialarts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Andrew Shultz




Location: Boston MA
Joined: 02 Mar 2004

Posts: 20

PostPosted: Tue 11 Nov, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael B. wrote:
I purchased the Revival US garment, and lucky me, it fit me to the tee, most people have an issue with it, but I lucked out. It's not very well padded (enough for light single sword work) but I put points on it and wear it under my harness, it works beautifully with no bunching or pulling. It does feel funny when you first put it on due to the sleeve design. I've been fighting in it for 6 months now with no issues.


I agree completely. If revival happens to fit you it's nicer than the zuparello - our group has both. But the zuparello, while lighter, isn't bad either - the guy who has it in our group just doesn't fit the revival product. With the shaped sleeve and so on some bodies work in revival and some just don't, and if you're a don't you'll hate it, and if like me it fits you you'll wear it all the time.
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Sellars





Joined: 10 Jun 2008

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri 14 Nov, 2008 10:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have the zuparello. I don't actually have a problem with the fit personally. But I do have a problem with having to keep sewing buttons on and and sewing around the button holes, it's not very robust. But it was cheaper than any of the other options I had. I wish I had spent the extra cash got a revival clothing or a matuls one now.
View user's profile Send private message
Jessica Finley
Industry Professional



Location: Topeka, Kansas
Joined: 29 Dec 2003

Posts: 110

PostPosted: Sat 15 Nov, 2008 5:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've said this before, but I'll throw it out here.

Any off-the-rack garments can be tailored to fit you. In the case of these arming garments, they should be tailored to fit you. Go to your local tailor/seamstress. I haven't worked with the revival.us Zuppon, but I've worked with a couple of the RC gambesons, and they are quite easy to deconstruct, tailor to fit, and reconstruct.

Just like when you spend $300+ on a suit, you expect to have it tailored to fit perfectly... you should do the same with these garments. It's just not sensible to expect it to fit perfectly off the rack, nor is sensible to use a poorly fitted garment.

Go get your gambesons altered! Really! You'll be thankful you did.

Selohaar Fechtschule, Free Scholar
http://www.selohaar.org/fechtschule

Fühlen Designs, Owner/Designer/Seamstress
http://fuhlendesigns.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Bruno Cerkuenik





Joined: 11 Sep 2006

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu 26 Feb, 2009 5:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

Could anybody explain the difference between the grande-assiete and the later inset sleeve??

Thanks!
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Al Muckart




Location: NZ
Joined: 27 Dec 2005

Posts: 309

PostPosted: Thu 26 Feb, 2009 9:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Randall,

Randall Moffett wrote:

I thought I had told you this before so my bad. A friend of mine got to look at the Charles VI not long before it was restored and she said she does not think it was an over garment/jupon like padded armour for several reasons. First was she indicated the size would not have worked over any type of armour used at the time unless perhaps a very fine mail shirt. Also theree are two types of buttons used on the front along the torso and skirt indicating it was worn under. Next time you are around let me know and I can give you more details on her visit there. Before I spoke with her I thought the same but if it is too small to wear over not much else for it.


Are you sure? If we're thinking of the same thing - the red one that there are pictures of in Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight and which Chuck Davis has pictures of on his website at http://www.mallet-argent.com/chartres.html, then I think it is at least partly an over-armour garment. I think we have to be a bit careful making judgements about clothing based on size when we don't know what size and shape the owner was.

I suspect that like the one on the Effigy of Walter von Hohenklingen, it goes over the arm armour and mail shirt, but there is a breastplate that goes over the top of it, hence the difference in buttons (round buttons don't play well with belts).

Maggie Forest has some comments on the arming cote, and I think the comparison is quite convincing when you see them side-by-side:
http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/ga...lesVI.html

The Met has a few notes on the effigy:
[/url]http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ufarm/ufarm_2.htm[url]

Doing a google images search for "Walter von Hohenklingen" will bring up more pictures.

--
Al.
http://wherearetheelves.net
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Thu 26 Feb, 2009 10:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello All,

May I throw a wrench in the works?

I just don't fit the standard. I have a "odd" body shape. I like the Revival Clothing Company garment, but it just doesn't fit me.

I'm too fat for the medium, way too small for the large.

The question should boil down to this. What are you looking for? A arming coat for armour? A stand alone cloth based coat for light to medium freeplay with blunts/ wasters?

My group uses Matuls Gambeson Type 4 as our standard coat. He makes them to order and does a good job fitting them to each person. The are way thicker than either the Revival Clothing Company or the Revival US garment. He uses different thicknesses throughout the garment for movement and protection. The down side, 45-60 days to get from order date and the cost of a international wire transfer and shipping.

Now with that said, if you don't need the extra padding and come close to the "off the rack "sizing of Revival Clothing Company garment, it is a fine garment for the price and you can have it in your hot , grubby, hands in a less than a week.

Cheers,

DT

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Revival.us zupparello?
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2017 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum