Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Building a pole arm Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next 
Author Message
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,607

PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2005 8:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oooo I'm liking that Sean. It looks as though you painted the pole. Is that standard? I hadn't really decided one way or the other...
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,933

PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2005 9:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wanted this piece to match my other polearms, which are lightly antiqued (sort of like what you'd see in the Graz armoury -see Blaz Berlec's photo below). So, I needed a slightly battered, dark haft. That usually means mutiple sloppy coats of dark walnut stain, but this time I added several droppers-full of black india ink to the stain. Two coats of the resulting solution made the wood nice and dark without completely obscuring the grain. I followed this with a light rubbing with steel wool all over to subdue the shine, simulate wear and make the little injuries to the wood stand out. As you'll see in the other thread, the original on which this piece is loosely modeled is not stained or painted. But, again, I wanted this piece to look like it's been sitting in a nice, quiet armoury for 400 years. As far as I can tell, hafts were not usually painted or stained, but I seem to recall that some were painted with pitch to preserve them. Those would have been very dark/black, I'm sure. Notice the variety of finishes in Blaz's photo....


 Attachment: 83.79 KB
download.jpg



Last edited by Sean Flynt on Mon 08 Aug, 2005 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,607

PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2005 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ahhh gotcha... Looking at that photo... DARN some of those look like they have some serious hafts...
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Blaz Berlec




Location: Podgorje, Kamnik, Slovenia, Europe
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 397

PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2005 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
I wanted this piece to match my other polearms, which are lightly antiqued (sort of like what you'd see in the Graz armoury -see Blaz Berlac's photo below). So, I needed a slightly battered, dark haft. That usually means mutiple sloppy coats of dark walnut stain, but this time I added several droppers-full of black india ink to the stain. Two coats of the resulting solution made the wood nice and dark without completely obscuring the grain. I followed this with a light rubbing with steel wool all over to subdue the shine, simulate wear and make the little injuries to the wood stand out. As you'll see in the other thread, the original on which this piece is loosely modeled is not stained or painted. But, again, I wanted this piece to look like it's been sitting in a nice, quiet armoury for 400 years. As far as I can tell, hafts were not usually painted or stained, but I seem to recall that some were painted with pitch to preserve them. Those would have been very dark/black, I'm sure. Notice the variety of finishes in Blaz's photo....


Well, you must take into account that Landeszeughaus in Graz has small windows and very dark interior (dark wooden floor, walls and ceilings), so it's very dark in there. I used my girlfriend's Konica-Minolta Dimage Z1which is OK (3MP, 10x optical zoom...) but cannot do miracles in dark.





But some of the hafts look as if they were painted with some dark colour, not just darkened by the age or collected dust. Check out these "peasant weapons":

[/img]


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,933

PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2005 12:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for another great photo, Blaz, and my apologies for misspelling your name!

We're seeing a great variety of finishes here. The only thing that surprises me about the Graz polearms is that any of them have such light-colored, clean-looking hafts! My guess is that an historically accurate reproduction haft should either be be only oiled or painted with a dark preservative (not simply stained to achieve the right color, as I have done). Pitch is as hard to come by as a good ash pole, no doubt.

I have no idea how the carpenters achieved the knobbly effect seen on some of the hafts in the first photo above, but it seems to have been common. Maybe it's a natural effect in the wood, exploited for its decorative and practical effects. Anyway, you're right, Russ, these are not for parade. Very serious business, those langets and spiral iron bands.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Mon 08 Aug, 2005 12:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,607

PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2005 12:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder if that knobbly stuff would improve the grip. Blaz, thanks for taking these pictures! I totally want one of those glaives in that picture you posted!
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Blaz Berlec




Location: Podgorje, Kamnik, Slovenia, Europe
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 397

PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2005 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A whole gallery of photos from Landeszeughaus in Graz, these were taken by my friends from "Fellowship of the Golden Spur", a medieval martial art society I attended for some time (and I still plan to be part of).

Enjoy.

Oh yes, they let them try on the helmets, wield a couple of swords and pole arms... They do that if you ask them nicely. I haven't thought of that... Well, it's only 2 hours of drive from my house, so I bet I'll go there again!

http://www.zlate-ostroge.org/galerije/graz_g2003.htm

Oh, and by the way, on this "spanish rider", you can clearly see the strongly tapered spears (or shortened pikes?):

http://www.zlate-ostroge.org/slike%20za%20gal...%20008.jpg


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,607

PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2005 1:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How cool are those!? Thanks Blaz!
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,933

PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2005 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ-You should check out Blaz's closeup shot of 16th century scabbards in the orginal thread in which he posted these images. It shows outstanding details of scabbard furniture, suspension, construction, etc.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...light=graz

Scroll to the middle of the page.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,208

PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2005 5:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Blaz;

Just a guess, but those shortened pikes look as if they might double as musket rests as they seem to all have a " hook "
a couple of feet down from the head that could be there for that purpose.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,607

PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2005 5:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Russ-You should check out Blaz's closeup shot of 16th century scabbards in the orginal thread in which he posted these images. It shows outstanding details of scabbard furniture, suspension, construction, etc.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...light=graz

Scroll to the middle of the page.


Thanks for the heads up Sean, those got added to my reference collection. Blaz a double thank you sir.

TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Anton de Vries





Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Likes: 3 pages

Posts: 266

PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2005 3:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some pole arms and other stuff I found on my recently revived computer. 17th century or thereabouts. Amsterdam, the Netherlands. City militia weaponry and armor.


 Attachment: 77.86 KB
Kuras4small.JPG


 Attachment: 26.1 KB
Kuras4crop.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,607

PostPosted: Wed 10 Aug, 2005 5:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the pictures! Are these purely ceremonial pieces do you think? The heads especially on the haldberds look rather fanciful and VERY rebated... or at least that's my interpretation of the photos...
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,933

PostPosted: Wed 10 Aug, 2005 6:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some of these are definitely headed toward spontoon-land. In fact, it looks like there are a couple of spontoons mixed in with this lot. As far as I know, by the time you get to those concave blades (late 16th c.) halberds are primarily, if not exclusively, for officers, guards and ceremonial use (militia fits in there). That's not to say they could not be used as weapons. Fight masters of the day reckoned that the thrust was the most effective use of polearms, and the weapons shown here still feature spear blades. Seven feet of ash and iron, in any configuration, is certainly not a toy. I'm trying to think of some notable exceptions, but I think pikes were the only strategically significant Anglo-European polearms left on the battlefield after ca. 1600, if not earlier.But even England had mothballed its famous bills by the early 17th c. They shipped lots of them, along with other outmoded arms and armour (mail coats, etc) to Virginia after a native uprising there in 1622. Scotland is ever the exception, of course. If you're going to charge a line of musket-armed and disciplined infantry, you might as well have a halberd derivative as a sword and wooden shield. Ah, the romance of being being perforated by an ounce of lead at close range....
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Wed 10 Aug, 2005 6:37 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Anton de Vries





Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Likes: 3 pages

Posts: 266

PostPosted: Wed 10 Aug, 2005 6:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've wondered about that too.
The points look business-like and may very well have been blunted when they became obsolete. The axe-like parts look like they've never been sharp at all.
I'd say/guess this stuff was used by rich members of the city militia, which was mostly an elitist occupation anyway, IIRC.

For those who like BIG pictures, and/or insist on drooling over 17th C arms and armor, I temporarily put up the originals and a few extra angles here:

http://www.ptah.demon.nl/Kuras/Jasje.jpg
http://www.ptah.demon.nl/Kuras/Kuras2.jpg
http://www.ptah.demon.nl/Kuras/Kuras3.jpg
http://www.ptah.demon.nl/Kuras/Kuras4.jpg
http://www.ptah.demon.nl/Kuras/Kuras5.jpg

I should probably redo them when time and the weather permits (this display is outdoors and needs sun to look good in pictures). Both time AND weather issues don't look promising btw... Worried
View user's profile Send private message
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,607

PostPosted: Wed 10 Aug, 2005 1:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well I did it...

I've cast about for pole arm heads with a marked lack of success, I finally decided to just go with a known quantity. So today I ordered the Italian Bill from Arms and Armor! Well just the head anyway, I want to do the rest of it myself...Oh it's pricey no doubt about it, but when you've owned the best it's awfully hard to get something else. In this case it was darned near impossible to even find anything else! I may yet go the custom route eventually, those glaives that Blaz posted were really cool, and Claudio has a nifty one on his site as well but this will hold me over until then.

One thing I didn't realize about that Bill until I talked to Craig was how friggin big it is! He was saying that without the pole all he had to charge me was like sword price shipping... I'm thinking to myself "Jeez Craig that's sort of steep for a little pole arm head isn't it?" Then I looked at the dimensions... Heck the head on the thing is 30 inches long. That's close to being the size of the Henry V sword!!! Okay can you tell I'm excited?....

TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,607

PostPosted: Wed 10 Aug, 2005 1:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just as an interesting side note Craig mentioned that he had a "pile" of polearm orders to fill suddenly... I'm sure that has nothing to do with our conversations here... Big Grin
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,208

PostPosted: Wed 10 Aug, 2005 1:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ;

Great news about your getting the Italian Bill, before I made up my mind about having a custom Langue de Boeuf made I did this Photoshop graphic of the A & A Italian Bill at its' standard length, at a reduced shaft only and with a reduced shaft with reduced spike lenght at the same scale.

This might give you ideas for " options " : With standard ceiling height that Italian Bill should be a good ceiling gouger Razz Eek! Laughing Out Loud

The shortened version might be a worth while option to consider.



 Attachment: 47.85 KB
Italian Bill01a copy.jpg


You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,607

PostPosted: Wed 10 Aug, 2005 1:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh you know I'm going to be doing the full size one... Happy Good thing I've got 10 foot ceilings. Now the question... this is a socketed pole arm... but I'm wondering if I should put some languettes on anyway...
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Gordon Frye




Location: Kingston, Washington
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Wed 10 Aug, 2005 4:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Blaz Berlec wrote:

Oh, and by the way, on this "spanish rider", you can clearly see the strongly tapered spears (or shortened pikes?):

http://www.zlate-ostroge.org/slike%20za%20gal...%20008.jpg


Tapers! Alright! Thanks for both posting that one, and for keeping an eye out for that little detail! Now to find some full length pikes that can be definitely provenianced to the 16th, or even the early 17th Century...

Thanks again, Blaz!

Cheers,

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Building a pole arm
Page 2 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2019 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum