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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Aug, 2005 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Doug Gardner wrote:
Ummm.... Chad, I would have thought that a little social learning from seeing the inside of my arm would have happened before that! Surprised

Would you classify the issue here as you were "just" unpacking them, so just didn't think about a level of safety that you would, otherwise?


Yes, "just" moving them after "just" cleaning them. There's no "just moving" or "just cleaning" situation. These things are always dangerous and should always be treated that way.

Happy

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Aug, 2005 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad;

Why I like a scabbard for every sword I have ! ( Well except for my huge Del Tin Venetian Twohander that isn't sharp. )

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Aug, 2005 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have scabbards for almost every sword I own. I intend for them all to have scabbards eventually.

The sword that bit me was part of a package Albion sent for an event I'm hosting tomorrow: no scabbards. Happy Even with scabbards, a sword won't usually get stored or displayed or cleaned while in the scabbard. And a scabbard isn't a substitute for acting with care and common sense.

Happy

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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Aug, 2005 2:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
And a scabbard isn't a substitute for acting with care and common sense.


This comment boils this whole discussion down to it's basic element. In the modern world anyone who deals with weapons in their profession is taught that "the best safety is you". we've been talking about safety equipment for use during cutting exercises, and safe places to store and display our swords, etc. All of the safety equipment and preparation in the world can't take the place of caution, respect, and attentiveness.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Aug, 2005 7:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The scabbard is just a part of the safety equation, being aware of the " always loaded " nature of a sharp blade is as previously mentioned the most important thing.

Although scabbards are not recommended for long term storage I personally haven't had a rust problem doing so.

Occasional oiling or use of Renaissance Wax currently and luck with the micro climate of my home maybe.

When I hand a sword even to a " trusted " friend I become hyper aware of how he is handling it. ( The klutz factor is large with people unused to sharp blades and is as great as wilful negligence. about the same as introducing a novice to handguns. )

Too much fear of the blade can make people do as many dangerously stupid things as an overconfident and casual attitude.

It goes without saying that alcohol ( drugs ) and sharp blades don't mix.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2005 10:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
...The Gaddhjalt was leaning up against a dresser. As I was moving another sword, my bare foot bumped against the Gaddhjalt blade. I didn't think anything of it until I looked at my foot a few seconds later and saw blood welling up. No pain at all, but there was a little chunk of skin missing...Lesson learned...

Exclamation $&*#&^(*&^ Good grief. I just did almost exactly the same thing yesterday (after having read this thread, of course WTF?! ). Except that the implement was my first gen Albion Mainz gladius. I guess in my case a lesson isn't actually learned until it is experienced. I'm really glad that I had blunted the edge some, otherwise I might have lost a big chunk of heel.
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Doug Gardner




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2005 7:46 pm    Post subject: Topic revival: new sources, anyone?         Reply with quote

Well, after a long time sleeping, I thought I'd wake up this old safety thread and ask if anyone has found any more good safety references for handling and using sharps.

I re-read the entire thread, and think the discussion was great. However, I'd like to gather more examples of formalized safety rules or guidelines.

While we're at it, would anybody like to share any more "lessons learned?"

--Doug

Doug Gardner
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Anton de Vries





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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 3:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Quote:
And a scabbard isn't a substitute for acting with care and common sense.


This comment boils this whole discussion down to it's basic element. In the modern world anyone who deals with weapons in their profession is taught that "the best safety is you". we've been talking about safety equipment for use during cutting exercises, and safe places to store and display our swords, etc. All of the safety equipment and preparation in the world can't take the place of caution, respect, and attentiveness.

Mr. Kelly says it all. "The Best Safety Is You".
Rules & regulations can never replace responsible behavior.
Those who are unable to behave responsibly don't belong in dangerous environments.

Second best is a riveted chainmail tent. Takes a bit of work though. Getting stabbed is probably more fun. Wink
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Bob Burns




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 2:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This topic is so important that it is vital. I think of all the kids in my neighborhood, I have to be very careful as I live in a townhouse with a small backyard and no rear fence, though the sides are fenced. All it takes is a child running by, a poorly executed cut wherein the object of intent knocks the sword out of hand and the blade goes flying in the air and hits the child running by.

I would never be able to live with that! The above is a terrifying and somewhat unlikely scenario but it sure is not out of the spectrum of a real possibility.

Thanks for posting this article, this is extremely important!

Bob
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C. Stackhouse




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 8:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some other safety tips.

Never cut when COLD!

I was out in my backyard cutting up some logs for the fire last year, it was about -35C (-31F?). Anyways, I figured I wouldn't be out there for too long so I didn't bother to grab gloves. After about 10 minutes I had chopped up all but two logs and couldn't really feel my fingers...when I struck the log with my axe the handle wrenched itself out of my numb digits, wedged into the log and caused end of the axe handle to jab into...umm...the place axes really shouldn't be jabbing into... I pulled myself out of the snow and limped inside. Thankfully no serious damage occurred. Big Grin

Which also reminds me, never chop anything that is on uneven ground at dusk.

This happened in August. My cousin and I were testing out a new battle axe he had purchased, the make escapes me but it was a 15th century 36 incher. We had a few small logs on the ground we were splitting and because of the failing light I SLIGHTLY overshot one of the logs, hitting it on the edge farthest from me. Due to the unevenness of the ground it caused the log to shoot towards me and cracked into my shin. The upside is it didn't break the skin or bone, the downside was I had a nice big bruise for about 3 weeks after.

Here's a pretty good rule to go by in anything you try. "What would Chris do?" and "Now let's do the exact opposite." Razz
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Ben Sweet




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2005 9:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Doug sorry to read about your cut....ouch. There is a sweatshirt sold by Draggin Jeans called the K-Shirt which is made of 100% kevlar with double kevlar in the elbows, shoulders and forearms. I bought 1 last month and I just got my 2nd of a couple of weeks ago. Last month I made a short video that I posted on another forum of me cutting my forearm with my sharpest kitchen knife while wearing my K-Shirt...100% protection and this was the reason I bought a 2nd one. I ride street bikes so the correct protective gear is a must against high speed asphalt skin removals. Here is the link to the K-Shirt which is also the site I used to purchase the K-Shirts, gloves, pants and jackets...

http://www.dragginjeans.com.au/products/kshirts/index.htm

Feel free to email me at infraredcoupe@gmail.com and I can send you the video which you can watch on RealPlayer or I can give you the link to the post if you want to see the video
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Michal Plezia
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Dec, 2005 7:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I use some modern skating armour on my knees and elbows.And iron gloves and sometimes a helmet.After some accidents during training most of our group started to use them too
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Doug Gardner




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PostPosted: Mon 06 Aug, 2007 9:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Given that the topic of safety was raised in a recent post about what can happen when you cross a violent moron with too much alcohol, I thought it would be appropriate to bump this old topic back to the top for a read.

While I agree that it would be inappropriate to try to establish the "safety police" to attempt to enforce safety standards, I utterly reject the notion that this community should not discuss guidelines and best practices for the safe handling of sharps. "Use your head" and similar notions are certainly the most important guideline, but using your head is hardly a substitute for education, practice, and understanding.

I hope that nobody is implying that we not discuss safety. Trying to suppress the discussion of how to safely handle these dangerous objects would be irresponsible. I don't know of ANY other hobby involving risk that doesn't encourage this discussion. Hunters, aviators, gun collectors, sailors, motorcyclists, and skateboarders all discuss safety issues, and most have guidelines (if not outright rules or laws). Certainly, some individuals will say that talking about it is stupid and that the only real piece of safety equipment is between their ears. Unfortunately, too many people have had that little piece of safety gear blown away because they didn't have enough knowledge to put it to good use. Just because you personally may have a tremendous amount of expertise in the area, that doesn't mean that everyone in the community has your expertise. Your head is only as good as what is in it.

After the discussion, if you decide for personal reasons that you don't want to follow some or all of the recommendations, that is your choice. If I happen to be at a gathering where you engage in what I consider to be unsafe handling, I'll (politely) ask you to be more careful with that, and I'll be specific about what I mean. If you don't want to be (your choice, if you're the host), then I'll leave. If you happen to be at a gathering that I'm hosting, you will follow the safety rules that I set out. If you don't, then you'll be the one leaving. So, if you ask "who is the safety police?" The answer is that the host is.

Does a discussion of safety and even following all of the guidelines mean that you'll never have an accident? NO! Certainly not. Guidelines don't make you safe. The intelligent application of the principles behind those guidelines should make you safer, though. And if one does happen, at least you would have understood the risks better, and made an enlightened decision.

If you think I feel strongly about this, you're right. There is nothing like having a limb cut down to the bone to put things in perspecitve.

Do I really care if you disagree? Well, actually I do. I think it is important for us as a community to respectfully discuss safety issues, because being able to do so reflects well on that community. Failure to do so reflects poorly on it. I also don't want a lot of "accidents" to negatively affect one of my hobbies, and I'm sure the industry professionals wouldn't want them to impact their livelihood. I think it will also reduce accidents, which is worth it, by itself.

Can you disagree with me? Sure. Especially if you disagree on whether you are safer observing cutting from the front, side, or rear. Disagreeing (and giving reasons for that disagreement) means that we are attempting to learn what is safest. The whole community can benefit from that.

Doug Gardner
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Pamela Muir




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PostPosted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 4:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Doug, Very well said. You put into words much of what I was thinking as I was reading that other thread.

On the subject of hosting a gathering, I believe it is the host's responsibility to keep the guests safe. I've been on the receiving end of "eye rolling" when I've enforced my "no alcohol until the swords are safely put away" rule. "No alcohol" is much easier to enforce than "stop drinking when your reflexes and judgement start to become impaired."

This is a very interesting discussion.

Pamela Muir

Founder/Lead Instructor
Academy of Chivalric Martial Arts


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Brian Robson





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PostPosted: Thu 18 Oct, 2007 6:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To be honest, I'm pretty surprised at the lack of precautions being taken here with handling sharps.

I had been considering aquiring a sharp to do a cutting display as part of our re-enactment events (probably not going to happen due to the legalities involved over here) and wouldn't even consider swinging a sharp sword without:

a) wearing full mail - head to toe.
b) having the sword strapped to the wrist in case the grip fails (hence the mail above)
c) having safe and locked storage for it.

I honestly find it hard to believe people are cutting regularly with no protection, and I also find it hard to believe people are leaving them stood on the floor, leaning up against stuff in the house.

I guess I always think of the guy losing a toe to a Katana in that youtube clip doing the martial-arts demonstration.

(btw, I originally read pool-noodle as pot-noodle and was struggling to picture it too) Laughing Out Loud
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Gary A. Chelette




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Oct, 2007 7:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have been in the martial arts for over 35 years. When I taught Karate and Judo in Pasadena Texas back in 1988, I did a yearly demo for the PISD schools every year. One year I was doing a live blade kata with one of my Katanas. I was wearing the traditional top and Harkama pants. During one of the moves that involved reversing the blade and thrusting straight back in a back stepping motion, the Harkama billowed out and caught the blade tip and directed the reverse thrust into my leg.
It passed clean through my right thigh and out . No pain at all, but I knew I mucked up. I pulled the blade out and finished my kata and bowed out. I went straight to the mens room to see how bad it was.
One entry point at the front and one exit point at the back of the leg. Still no blood. We put Neosporin on it and wrapped it up and continued the show.
After all these years, I can still see the entry and exit scars on my leg. Never no pain and only a drop or two of blood.

Amazing I didn't hit something. That was the last time I did that kata!

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Oct, 2007 8:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gary A. Chelette wrote:
I have been in the martial arts for over 35 years. When I taught Karate and Judo in Pasadena Texas back in 1988, I did a yearly demo for the PISD schools every year. One year I was doing a live blade kata with one of my Katanas. I was wearing the traditional top and Harkama pants. During one of the moves that involved reversing the blade and thrusting straight back in a back stepping motion, the Harkama billowed out and caught the blade tip and directed the reverse thrust into my leg.
It passed clean through my right thigh and out . No pain at all, but I knew I mucked up. I pulled the blade out and finished my kata and bowed out. I went straight to the mens room to see how bad it was.
One entry point at the front and one exit point at the back of the leg. Still no blood. We put Neosporin on it and wrapped it up and continued the show.
After all these years, I can still see the entry and exit scars on my leg. Never no pain and only a drop or two of blood.

Amazing I didn't hit something. That was the last time I did that kata!


Gary:
Sounds lucky that no nerves, arteries/veins or tendons were involved. Eek! Just skin, fat and muscle tissue.

Also luck that the wound was in and through and that once the blade was fully in that there as no lateral pressure on the blade to turn a deep stab into an open long gash !

Brian:
As far as wearing maille to do test cutting I'm sure it is safer but if one has a sound blade were the odds of the blade breaking off are low and one observes all the normal safety precautions it does seem a bit excessive !
( Local laws and litigious conditions might make taking extra precaution a good idea way past what common sense prudence would suggest ? My reaction is mostly just surprise and more questions ! ).

If one want total safety at all times then one would wear the maille for carving a turkey or roast beef Eek! Surprised

How about all the other sharp things that one can use at work or at home from steak knives, to carpentry tools, axes to chop wood, surgeons using a scalpel, running with scissors even: The point being that handling a sword may seem like something special but we handle every day " SHARPS " and hardly think about it twice. Oh, and accidents do happen with all of these on occasion.

Maybe society is getting much too " phobic " about all risks that it's becoming akin to a psychological disorder !
Motorcycle helmets laws leading to, bicycle helmets laws , to walking helmets laws, to just getting out of bed helmets laws.
In other words any risk, no matter how small or remote, becomes something that the nanny state must regulate. Sad Laughing Out Loud

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Ed Toton




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Oct, 2007 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Storing weapons without locking them up isn't necessarily an issue. It has more to do with the people living in the house than the weapons themselves. How you choose to secure your weapons is a personal choice, I think, depending on how comfortable you are with it, and how everyone else living in the house deals with it.

Just like loaded firearms (which is a whole separate discussion of course), keeping sharp weapons within easy reach in the home is rarely a problem as long as everyone living there understands safe handling, and respects the inherent dangers.

Having said that, I did injure myself that way once, but it was totally my own fault for leaving the Klingon Bat'leth on the stairs. Running barefoot down the stairs got me what you might expect. I don't leave sharps in places where feet are likely to be anymore.

-Ed T. Toton III
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Gary A. Chelette




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Oct, 2007 1:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:


Gary:
Sounds lucky that no nerves, arteries/veins or tendons were involved. Eek! Just skin, fat and muscle tissue.

Also luck that the wound was in and through and that once the blade was fully in that there as no lateral pressure on the blade to turn a deep stab into an open long gash !

:


Your correct! I knew it went in and I pulled quickly, STRIGHT OUT! Good thing Katana's have only one edge. I've cut myself with a pocket knife in the same leg and did not fair as well. I got Cellulitis around the cut and was very painful. Worried

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Gary A. Chelette




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Oct, 2007 2:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ed Toton wrote:


Having said that, I did injure myself that way once, but it was totally my own fault for leaving the Klingon Bat'leth on the stairs. Running barefoot down the stairs got me what you might expect. I don't leave sharps in places where feet are likely to be anymore.


A Bat'leth?? Was it a 9th century one or a common 23rd century model?
. Big Grin

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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