[Gary Grzybek]

Cool!

Two were ordered at my Round Table


Very sweet sword indeed

[Michael F.]

[Jared Smith]

I would love to know the grip length of the next generation version of the Crecey. Please post it!

I have the original Crecey and am obsessed with it. I am sorely tempted to buy the next generation version. My only regret with the original is the short grip length (6.5" between crossguard and pommel wheel.) Please post the grip length of the next generation version (about 7"?)

I have emailed a question regarding possible longer grip length longsword models to Albion.

My impression of "hand and a half" and "war sword" is that the term applies more to weight and ability to wield it either one handed or two handed, or perform dual thrusting/cutting action, not guaranteed cramped space making it just barely possible to get two hands on it. I could be dead wrong on this point since I have not seen a great deal of historical swords (other than touring castles along the Rhine river.) Once you allow gap/slop between hand and pommel during one handed use, 2.5 spare inches versus 5 spare inches makes only minor difference if the balance is good. It does make tremendous difference in terms of speed and leverage once you decide to commit to using the two handed grip!

Several period fechtbuchs (fighting instruction manuals) texts from 1300's through 1600 clearly and consistently illustrate significant space between two hands gripping longswords. Illustrations from some of these manuals can be viewed at the ARMA web site http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm. For most adult modern hands this really dictates a minimum of 8" grip length. For most men with average large glove size, a 9" grip length is more like it. This seems inconsistent with photos of historical swords I have seen in the forums here as well as featured good quality offerings. Also, a waisted grip (front hand grip area thicker than pommel end grip) definately seems to be preferred by those who actually practice longsword use, two handed, as a martial art. I am still getting my but kicked during sparring in ARMA sessions, but can easily tell that what the experienced trainers and veteran members say regarding grip length is obvious truth. My padded combat sword mimicks my Crecey very well in terms of weight and moment of inertia, but has a 9" grip. Some may argue that these points only apply to speed and manueverability of armored combat. As a counterpoint, I can only say that I "suspect" there were a lot of unarmored opponents holding looted swords on the field! Any opinions there...........

Jared Smith

[Jeremiah Swanger]

[Alexi Goranov]

[Bruce Wilson]

I like this new XVIa blade! Is there any chance that we'll see this with some alternate hilt options like the XVa blade?

Could I have mine with the guard and pommel from the Ringeck please...?

Thanks!!

[Eric Spitler]

[Bruce Wilson]

My understanding is that both the guard and the pommel would be in the right kind of time-frame for this blade but whether you'd see them mated together I just don't know. I guess there's also the issue of what the altered weight distribution and hilt length would do to the handling of such a sword.

Aesthetically I think this combination would look fantastic and I'm not aware of any historical inaccuracies in doing so but I freely admit that I'm not fully up to speed with that.

I'd definitely go scrounging together the pennies to buy one of they made it!

[Jared Smith]

Although there are not good illustrations from 1300's texts (i.e. Hanko Dobringer), at least a couple early 1400's texts (Fior Dei Liberi, Gladiatado Ria) have some more than adequate illustrations to establish that longer grip swords were used in combat (armored and unarmored) and refer back to earlier 1300's masters as sources of the techniques illustrated. If you attempt to do some of the classic manuevers (overhead pivots, defensive parry from Ochs/Ox ...stepping off an opponents overhead line of overhead attack with 360 degree stroke to neck/shoulder, etc.) the advantage and actual need for a longer grip to execute the mid 1300's origin techniques is self evident. I initially choked my hands to close togather (trying to simulate the grip that would be available on my Crecey 1st Gen), and the joints in the thumbs hurt for over a week afterwards of the first sparring session. There was no pain or soreness once I got over that idea and accepted the full 9" grip length available on the modern training swords and wasters. It is also plausible that some people dueled with these long grip swords during the time periods (they may not simply have been limited to training) since some sketches show what appear to be merchant class clothing combatants with looser having the victor's point sticking all the way through the kidney area, cut throat, etc. Presumably, the 1300's text description was based on actual observation of duels and real combat situations, during travels all over western Europe.

All of this two handed style stuff has been presented (in the original text introductions as well as explanation to me by present instructors) as the historical foundation and initial German style training recieved by most potential European warriors who would later use a sword. The same principles and manuevers later work one handed with a shorter, lighter, one-handed sword if the candidate is successful and graduates to sword and shield training. The beauty of it is that for initial study, investment was (and still is) low. No armor, only gambeson was worn in training, and most sparring was done with a 48" long wood waster. One theory why training may have started with the two handed grip is that the trainee will pay in pain (bruises from blunt edge impacts) for poor strategy/ skill at the onset, and be encouraged to develop correct posture, guards, edge control, and tactics. One may form poor sword technique habbits and stunt their potential if they start out compensating for poor sword and foot work by bashing around with the shield.

I have also seen a fair number of armor suits during my castle tours when I worked in Luxembourg for about 6 months during 1993. I also just examined much of the armor at the Higgins armory very thoroughly at the end of April 2005. Some older armor (chain as well as early 1400's plate) are displayed. Half guantlets that a modern "Large Glove Sized hand" would fit into were what I remembered on armor that was not just light parade stuff. I judge that I could passably wear much of the historic armor/mail that I have seen, although I have never been granted the priveledge to actually try!

Jared Smith

[Peter Johnsson]

By designing the Next Generation line of swords I have dedicated myself to the making ofwell crafted, high quality performance swords at affordable prices that are made after the example of actual historical types. This last might seem excentric; why insist on historical types?
I think there are a number of benefits with this approach. First of all, why do we assume we can improve on or design from scratch something that has taken millennia to develop? Might there be things to learn and appreciate if we spend time looking and cotemplating ancient designs and solutions? Could this actually change our present understanding of the sword? I think so.
All designs must be understood in their contexts. And that is another benefit: we can test our theories and see what actually works with authentic proper tools. If the techniques does not work, it might be the case that there is something strange with our interpretations...?

The contemporary obsession with scent stopper pommels and certain specific detials like placing of balance point, total weight and grip length can be overpowering. Sometimes I wonder why it seems so far fetched to appreciate ancient sword types for what they are? We might actually learn something new in the process...

I am sorry if this comes across as a sour remark. It is not. I actually write this with a smile on my face.
I can absolutely understand and respect the interest for certain types or features, as they are so predominant in contemporary WMA. That is why there are swords in the NG line that fulfill these criteria very closely. Soon there will be more along those lines (the new XVa´s, for example). I would just like to point out that only a few types are going to meet these specifics of grip length, pommel type, handling character, weight and so on. We have different types of swords through history just precisely because they need to fill different needs and functions. Do not ask every type and sword to follow the same limited set of criteria. If we did that all swords would feel the same and look basically the same, only with fullers or other features added as a cosmetic touch. I personally think there is a value in staying true to time and place in style and function.
The danger here is that we only look for and appreciate a limited number of features that fit our present understanding of a specialized application of swordsmanship or the craft of swordmaking. There is more to swords than is obvious from the perspecitve of the study of historical fencing manuals or test cutting mats, bottles or meat.

To develp a broader understanding we need to be exposed to authentic originals or study well made replicas of specific types or individuals. The Next Gen line is just that: good representations based on actual study of originals.
To me saying that swords are built after historical example is not a mere marketing hype. It is an essential element in the design, development, manufacture, use and understanding of these magnificent weapons.
I will keep doing this: designing swords that are classic examples of more or less common types of historical swords.

Some days it feels like being a wine maker getting feedback that his vintages are fine, they should just taste a bit more like Coke...
No harm or offence intended!
..and I really appreciate the feedback, whatever way it comes. Keep it coming

Best
Peter

[Bruce Wilson]

Thanks for your comments Peter - no offense taken, I fully appreciate your comments!

In no way was I suggesting that we were asking you to make designs to order (!). The things I appreciate most about your work are the research and the historical intregrity. That's exactly why I was wary about the historical provenance of the alternate hilt/blade combo - I had a feeling from what I'd read that it was appropriate (and it seems to look right) but I do admit that I'm very much a novice here!

I guess they way I should have phrased the question was in a more general way to ask if Albion was going to repeat the approach that was taken with the XVa and offer several blades with a number of hilt variations? (All historically appropriate, of course...! )

Thanks,
B

[Aaron Schnatterly]

[Bruce Wilson]

Yes, of course! I was thinking that there were others.

Sorry, I'm not the most on the ball at the moment - I did know about the Prince/Squire and Landgraf/Sempach similarities, honest!

I guess what I *really* meant was to ask if this was a possibility that had been considered for any of the other new blades, where appropriate.

I'm gonna give up now...!

[Joe Fults]

Not to speak for Peter or Albion, but I believe it has been. If you check everthing here:

http://albion-swords.com/swords/albion/swords...extgen.htm

I believe you'll find several variations on many of the blades. As time has passed it seems like most of the blades get a different version or two. I'll also admit to making a similar request about a year ago when I got my Regent. The lucky part, for me, was that Peter was aware of examples that were close to what I was asking for. Although not any examples with what I though would be the "ideal" guard.

I'm waiting on an Earl now.

If you really think you might like the Crecy with a stopper, one way to approach the request is to find a historical example. This is probably not as daunting as it seems, assuming some exist. There are lots of photo albums here and other places that show museum collections.

[Bruce Wilson]

[Joe Fults]

[Jared Smith]

One other comment here on the possibility that longer grips were more prevalent than reflected in our current reproductions... Mostly, I am really begging Peter Johnsson to make something along the longer grip design theme....

I enquired of an ARMA friend (admittedly predisposed towards long grip) why there appear to be very few surviving exmples of 8" to 10" grip length longswords. His response reminded me of something I believe was mentioned on the description of the Albion Laird (not really sure.) Many blade smiths did not neccessarily forge a new blade each time, but rather refitted good quality blades with new hardware. The best quality and most useful blades may have been re-utilized until destroyed. There is a thread "1st Albion bad review" that speaks to the credible case that swords are perishable.

I consider this a pretty weak argument, and totally unprovable. However, both fektbuks (fightbooks) and artwork from medieval periods illustrate a consistent story of a large quantity of very long hilted swords. It does not seem prudent to ignore this altogather. The following website had period artwork..http://www.kulmbach.net/~MGF-Gymnasium/bilderdaten/mittelalter%204/.

I have been thinking about PeterJohnsonn's response earlier in this thread. It is possible that the long grip swords were highly specialized and not representative of the more common weapons. Consider two total tangents;

I am a 4th generation woodworker and my father has over 200 antique wood planes. Many of these date back 150-250 years (verifiyable by makers marks on heel of plane, including some ship building planes from England) in age. Once you start dealing with ages over 100 years, the undisputabily most common planes (block plane, jack plane, rabbit plane) are very hard to come by for the simple reaons that they were never retired but rather re-fitted and re-used until totally broken down. Most of what survive are specialty molding planes (not utilized nearly as much as the previously mentioned types.)

Similarly, my wife collects antique green depression glass (Horseshoe pattern in particular.) It is well known what various makers produced in largest quantities (bowls, average beverage sized glasses, etc. the same as what most of us have in largest quantities in our present day kitchens), yet these well used pieces are now hard to come by since most were used until broken. What survives in larger quantities are the specialty desert and condiment purpose specimens. In short, what survives are the special occasion/ ceremonial grade pieces. The most commonly distributed and utilized pieces, in their time, are rare finds today.

In each of the two above tangents (glassware and woodworking tools) surviving specimens would be a very poor standard for the purpose of gaugeing usefulness and degree of commonality in their day. Given the degree of prominence of long grip swords in both period artwork and instruction illustrations by period masters, does anyone else see some credibility to the possibility that longer grips than found in current reproductions was accurate to 1350's through 1550's (a very long span of time for one enduring style of sword...), despite the fact that there does not appear to be many surviving examples?

Jared Smith

Jared Smith

[Patrick Kelly]

Well, I really see this as a fruitless argument.

Those who want longer grips will convince themselves that they're historically feasible, and were actually quite prominent because there aren't that many still extant. (I've always found this penchant for using the lack of physical evidence to prove a point completely ridiculous, must be the cop in me. Swords were actually made of swiss cheese because there aren't any left made of swiss cheese and they were all melted down and spread on toast) This is simply the human propensity to wrap our own desires in a logical context, regardless of what those desires may be. They're our desires therefore they must be valid. (I like swiss cheese on toast therefore the best swords were made from swiss cheese, and there aren't any left so they must have been the most widely used.)

If someone wants a longer grip on their sword then get a sword with a longer grip. If a production company doesn't offer one don't waste time in trying to badger them into making one, go find a custom smith to make one for you. If you like a longer grip then simply say that you like a longer grip, don't try to wrap it in an historical context by using a lack of foundational evidence as proof. Physical evidence is all we have to go on if we're going to try and truly replicate these things. Everything else is just hypothesis and conjecture (Which is fine, but don't try to disguise it as historical fact)

Period artwork is invaluable but can only be taken so far. Period artwork shows Joshua and the Israelites storming the ramparts of Jericho in Italian Renaissance armor. Period artwork shows Norman Knights in blue and green mail riding blue, green and red horses. I highly doubt any of this is true. Even though it might be quite a fashion statement to ride around on a blue and red horse in green mail, I'm not about to do it and show up at the next Hastings re-enactment and claim that I'm basing my persona on historical fact..

[Peter Johnsson]

I´d like to see the NG Crécy reach customers showing what it is before I start concsidering alternative designs.

I see where you come from, though. A really long grip on the Crécy does not seem natural to me at first glance. I will look around though. At present the grip is just shy of 7". The most natural grip is with the left hand paritally griping the wheel pommel. And that wheel pommel is perfectly grippable, eve if it is ot a scent stopper. Try it out, it actually works and helps in edge alignement in a wonderful way.

Those who lone for a truly longrpipped sword should look out for the coming NG version of the Bayeriches sword. It has a 10" grip (..but with a wheel pommel- oh horror! I wonder why they kept making so many wheel pommel since they cannot be gripped? *Please note: this was irony! )

A NG version of that sword will have the same dimensions and handling characteristics as the original. Probably also exactly the same blade as a future Museum Line version. The hilt components will be somewhat simplified, lacking some of the intricate beveling and the engravings. Also the grip will not be decorated, of course, but have mostly the same grip core.

..But this thread was dedicated to the new NG Crécy. So I´ll stop right here. When things have developed more, I can explain more about these coming swords and versions. Right now they are on the planning stage.

Thanks!
Peter

[Patrick Kelly]

I love wheel pommels Peter.