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Pedro Paulo Gaião
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 Posted: Thu 02 Mar, 2023 7:03 am Post subject: Nomenclature for Longsword <actual> medieval documents |
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Longsword, Bastard Sword, Great Sword, Two Handed Sword, War Sword and such were names we often see being used either popularly or in the field of research due to how easy and precise they fall into a division.
I'm making a video about historical names for swords, longswords specifically, but I'm only acquainted with Portuguese primary sources. So, i would like to share what I know and see how much of information we get in this subject:
According to 15th century sources, Portuguese longswords were mainly called Espada-de-Armas (sword-of-arms), probably meaning something bigger or related to men-at-arms: cavalry lances were called lança-de-armas (lance-of-arms) and pollaxes facha-de-armas (hache-of-arms); the other less popular name, was Estoque (estoc), which was, according to the 15th century royal archiver Fernao Lopes, the name given in the past for swords like the sword-of-arms, but that were heavier and more cut-oriented.
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“E leixadas as lamças das maãos, que a huuns e a outros pouco nojo fez, e jazemdo huum gramde vallo dellas amtre huuma aaz e outra, veherom aas fachas e espadas darmas, nam desta grandeza do tempo daguora, mas tamanhas como espadas de maão grossas e estreitas, e chamauam-lhe estoques”
Translation: after droping the spears from the hands, which caused some dislike among some [...] came the pollaxes and sword of arms, not of the length of this current time, but as big as an arming sword, thick and short, and they called it Estocs |
Two references exists for a Espada de Duas Mãos (two handed sword) or Espada de Armas de Duas Mãos (two handed sword-of-arms) in 1380's, but referring to the same sword. Fernao Lopes mentions that Pero Sarmento, Castile's Marshall, send a "sword-of-arms, two handed" to the Portuguese Constable Nuno Álvares Pereira in 1384, as a challenge to a fight; it was later carried by Nuno's page, as sometimes esquires and pages are described carrying the helmets, shields and spears of their masters.
For arming swords: 1) Espada-cinta (belt-sword) and espada de mão (lit. hand sword, more stylistically translated as one handed sword. 2) Espada de guardas or espada de guardas duplas (sword of double guards) is an arming sword with the classic Iberian crab hilt. 3) Espada Gineta (ginete sword), basically a Moorish sword with their classical Arab hilt, prized mostly for aesthetic value. 4) We're not sure for falchion nomenclature, Terçado might be a falchion, but Historians says it's a short straight sword adopted from or for North Africa's campaigns; I think it makes sense as it's mentioned among the arms looted by the Portuguese in Morroco.
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CASTILE.
A good deal of Portuguese names for arms and armor was shared or came from Castile and elsewhere like Italy, France and England (bascinet -> bascinete; camail -> camal etc). I could find the name Estoque in the Ordinances of Burgos/Valadolid of 1385 where Estoque and Sword are used to mean different options for a soldier, Ian Heath interpreted as longsword and arming sword; it appears alongside "cochillo complido", literally "long cutlass" but more accurately described as a long knife or perhaps actually a falchion, as poorer assized men are not required to have this weapon at all.
Ordinance of 1385 (p.7): https://medievalistas.es/wp-content/uploads/attachments/00588.pdf
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GERMANY
Jefrrey Hull gives the following evidence and his translations:
Schlachtschwerdt |War Sword Type XIIa.3 (Type XVIa?) | circa 1350-1400
Reydtschwerdt |Riding Sword Type XV.9 & Edward III | c. 1400-1450 & c. 1350
Triecker | Harness Sword XVII.11 | circa 1375-1400
I suspect Schlachtschwerdt should be kept as Slaughter Sword, which is said to be the name used to call Zweihander later in 16th century. The name was also used in England to refer to Two Handers.
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I suspect Estoc to be a term for Longswords elsewhere in places like Italy, England and perhaps even France.
“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
Last edited by Pedro Paulo Gaião on Thu 02 Mar, 2023 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Thu 02 Mar, 2023 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Estoque (estoc), which was, according to the 15th century royal archiver Fernao Lopes, the name given in the past for swords like the sword-of-arms, but that were heavier and more cut-oriented. |
Interesting, as the original French term is derived from thrusting and stabbing. I wonder how this flipping of meaning occured?
Anthony Clipsom
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Pedro Paulo Gaião
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| Posted: Thu 02 Mar, 2023 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Anthony Clipsom wrote: | | Quote: | | Estoque (estoc), which was, according to the 15th century royal archiver Fernao Lopes, the name given in the past for swords like the sword-of-arms, but that were heavier and more cut-oriented. |
Interesting, as the original French term is derived from thrusting and stabbing. I wonder how this flipping of meaning occured? |
But the Portuguese sense is also these. I think they named it Estoque because 14th century swords did had piercing techniques favoured by the extra reach and the second hand, I think it just got progressively more dedicated on thrust and less dedicated on cut. But Fernao Lopes still describes the Porto Tournament (1384), for people fighting at foot with kettle hats and estoques, in terms that those swords "were very good cutters, according to the usage of that time", so perhaps I'm wrong.
“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Sun 12 Mar, 2023 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote: | | Anthony Clipsom wrote: | | Quote: | | Estoque (estoc), which was, according to the 15th century royal archiver Fernao Lopes, the name given in the past for swords like the sword-of-arms, but that were heavier and more cut-oriented. |
Interesting, as the original French term is derived from thrusting and stabbing. I wonder how this flipping of meaning occured? |
But the Portuguese sense is also these. I think they named it Estoque because 14th century swords did had piercing techniques favoured by the extra reach and the second hand, I think it just got progressively more dedicated on thrust and less dedicated on cut. But Fernao Lopes still describes the Porto Tournament (1384), for people fighting at foot with kettle hats and estoques, in terms that those swords "were very good cutters, according to the usage of that time", so perhaps I'm wrong. |
Is it possible that being a good cutter didn’t mean what we mean today? Today we contrast cutting with thrusting, but in English the word blow was used and in German the word Hau. Both words could apply to both sharp and blunt weapons.
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Pedro Paulo Gaião
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| Posted: Mon 13 Mar, 2023 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Ryan S. wrote: |
Is it possible that being a good cutter didn’t mean what we mean today? Today we contrast cutting with thrusting, but in English the word blow was used and in German the word Hau. Both words could apply to both sharp and blunt weapons. |
It also matters that in Portuguese we don't have terms like slicing, chopping, cutting etc. It's just corte (cut), the "espadas muy cortadores, segundo a usança de seu tempo" would be translated as "good cutters".
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I made some extra research on Castilian documentation: the term "estoque" also appears in the Sumptuary Laws of 1380, which allowed citizens to use "golden estoques" (probably the hilt of the longsword) and a number of fancy clothes they wished to wear. Some legislation regarding prices for polishing weapons in 1350's also talk about "hilted cochilo" which seems to refers to falchions, as in the Assize of Arms of 1385.
As in Portugal, the longsword was often (if not always) used in ceremonies such as arming a knight (the Portuguese princes after Ceuta in 1415). The Constable's cerimonies also uses them:
| Quote: | La ceremonia con que se hizo su nombramiento de condestable, fue la siguiente: hincado de rodillas delante del rey, éste le puso un anillo de oro en un dedo de la mano derecha: luego le alargó un estoque desnudo y un estandarte: tomándolos don Alfonso hizo [...] Era preeminencia del condestable, que se hizo la primera dignidad de Castilla, llevar guión y mazas, reyes de armas, y estoque con vaina, la punta abajo, a diferencia del rey que le llevaba desnudo y la punta arriba
Translation: The ceremony with which his appointment as constable was made was as follows: kneeling before the king, the later put a gold ring on his right hand's finger; then he gave [?] him a naked estoque/longsword and a standard: taking them, don Alfonso swore an oath [...] It was pre-eminence of the constable, who became the first dignity of Castile, to carry a guión and maces, reyes de armas [an heraldic shield?], and an estoque/longsword with a scabbard, pointed down, while the King carried a naked [longsword], pointed up. |
Source: https://filosofia.org/his/laf/p203c19.htm#kp8
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FRANCE AND ENGLAND:
What's more significant, though, is that Oakeshott records the term "espee de armes" in 14th century, which means the Iberians had the name espada de armas from France, and from where they likely adopted it. Weirdly, though, is that he translated espee de armes as Arming Sword, a term that we today consider to be a one-handed sword.
"Harness sword" is a German term for a longsword, so I wonder if we didn't get the nomenclature wrong, arming sword actually meaning a longsword, as it's a sword to used when armed (armoured).
“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Thu 30 Mar, 2023 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote: | | Ryan S. wrote: |
Is it possible that being a good cutter didn’t mean what we mean today? Today we contrast cutting with thrusting, but in English the word blow was used and in German the word Hau. Both words could apply to both sharp and blunt weapons. |
It also matters that in Portuguese we don't have terms like slicing, chopping, cutting etc. It's just corte (cut), the "espadas muy cortadores, segundo a usança de seu tempo" would be translated as "good cutters".
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I made some extra research on Castilian documentation: the term "estoque" also appears in the Sumptuary Laws of 1380, which allowed citizens to use "golden estoques" (probably the hilt of the longsword) and a number of fancy clothes they wished to wear. Some legislation regarding prices for polishing weapons in 1350's also talk about "hilted cochilo" which seems to refers to falchions, as in the Assize of Arms of 1385.
As in Portugal, the longsword was often (if not always) used in ceremonies such as arming a knight (the Portuguese princes after Ceuta in 1415). The Constable's cerimonies also uses them:
| Quote: | La ceremonia con que se hizo su nombramiento de condestable, fue la siguiente: hincado de rodillas delante del rey, éste le puso un anillo de oro en un dedo de la mano derecha: luego le alargó un estoque desnudo y un estandarte: tomándolos don Alfonso hizo [...] Era preeminencia del condestable, que se hizo la primera dignidad de Castilla, llevar guión y mazas, reyes de armas, y estoque con vaina, la punta abajo, a diferencia del rey que le llevaba desnudo y la punta arriba
Translation: The ceremony with which his appointment as constable was made was as follows: kneeling before the king, the later put a gold ring on his right hand's finger; then he gave [?] him a naked estoque/longsword and a standard: taking them, don Alfonso swore an oath [...] It was pre-eminence of the constable, who became the first dignity of Castile, to carry a guión and maces, reyes de armas [an heraldic shield?], and an estoque/longsword with a scabbard, pointed down, while the King carried a naked [longsword], pointed up. |
Source: https://filosofia.org/his/laf/p203c19.htm#kp8
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FRANCE AND ENGLAND:
What's more significant, though, is that Oakeshott records the term "espee de armes" in 14th century, which means the Iberians had the name espada de armas from France, and from where they likely adopted it. Weirdly, though, is that he translated espee de armes as Arming Sword, a term that we today consider to be a one-handed sword.
"Harness sword" is a German term for a longsword, so I wonder if we didn't get the nomenclature wrong, arming sword actually meaning a longsword, as it's a sword to used when armed (armoured). |
That is potentially mind-blowing.
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Neil Melville
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| Posted: Sat 01 Apr, 2023 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Nomenclature for mediaeval arms and armour is a minefield. However, it seems to be generally accepted that the 'estoc' (in various spellings) was a long-bladed sword adapted for thrusting, not cutting, and could be one- or two-handed. Also the 'arming sword' (so called in English) was single-handed knightly sword, cut and thrust. But having said that, the same word can have different meanings in different languages. Good luck.
Neil
N Melville
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