Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Polearms before 1400 Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2 
Author Message
Craig Peters




PostPosted: Mon 15 Aug, 2022 8:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The PDF Len posted certainly complicates the situation regarding polearms. Some of the images show polearms consistent with what we have seen before. One thing interesting is that some of the maces appear to be more consistent in length with a morning star; that is to say, they seem to have long hafts meant for two-handed use. The images are also a good reminder that in parts of Mediterranean and Eastern Europe, double headed war axes were not unknown.

However, I admit to being rather surprised to see what look like poleaxes in 9th and 11th century images. Figure one also seems to depict a pair of rather unusual polearms with sickle-like heads and mysterious top and back protrusions that are challenging to interpret.

My impression is that these images provide good evidence for regional variation in polearms. I think they may also indicate that certain polearms, like the proto-poleaxes, perhaps existed for a time, went out of fashion, and then returned. Of course, I know comparatively little about Eastern European art- perhaps some of these weapons remained in use throughout the Middle Ages. At any rate, there doesn't seem to be good evidence for their usage in Western Europe during the 11th through 14th centuries.
View user's profile Send private message
Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Joined: 27 Jul 2009

Posts: 319

PostPosted: Mon 15 Aug, 2022 11:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think one of the problems we have is definition. Medieval people were bad at it and probably included a range of things under a heading which we would try to tease apart (because categorisation and typology is part of our scientific tradition). The obvious early polearm which is not an axe is a guisarme, which is frequently mentioned but not defined. Some believe it to be an axe with a wide blade which sweeps back toward the haft and can be attached to it (Waldman and Oakeshot, for instance). Some, therefore, might consider some of Craig's "halberds" as guisarmes. Others think it was something different.

On halberd illustrations, in Hafted weapons in Medieval Renaissance Europe Waldman illustrates many excavated examples of the early type, the earliest from the 13th century (although how secure this dating is archaeologically I wouldn't know). The Mortgarten find is illustrated (p.38). All of these are the type sometimes known as halberds, or sometimes as Swiss voulges.

Thanks to those digging out the illustrations and study material, BTW - most interesting.

Anthony Clipsom
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Tue 16 Aug, 2022 5:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks to all who've weighed. I'm enjoying this. Happy

The article Len posted shows a couple examples of the much-maligned double bladed axe. Happy

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Jean Henri Chandler




Location: New Orleans
Joined: 20 Nov 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,420

PostPosted: Fri 19 Aug, 2022 9:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As others mentioned upthread, period terminology is not always as precise as we would like, but by the 13th Century you start to see references to something other than spears and swords being issued as special weapons. For example before the Battle of Hausbergen in 1262, which was fought mainly between the citizens of Strasbourg and her nominal overlord, the "Fighting Bishop" Walter von Geroldseck, the burghers were issued "large axes" (große Äxte, also called lange biel in one account) which were specifically made by the town artisans for the battle and were mentioned a few times in the accounts. They were told by their commanders to "hew and keep hewing no matter what happens". And this was in the knowledge they would be facing the armored cavalry of the Bishop and his vassals.

In the event the Strasbourg forces won the fight so something about it may have worked. These could have been some kind of proto-halberd or proto-glaive type of weapon. Crossbows were apparently also important in this battle.

By the end of the century you see battles like this taking place which centered around crossbows and what are clearly new types of weapons, like the goedendag in the Battle of Golden Spurs in 1302. The Goedendag is older than that battle of course, and is mentioned at least as far back as 1297.

Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum

Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Henri Chandler




Location: New Orleans
Joined: 20 Nov 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,420

PostPosted: Fri 19 Aug, 2022 10:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
I'm a little curious about the dating on some of these artifacts. I would have thought that the more slender bill-like weapons, particularly with that forward-angled backspike, were quite late. A couple of those bills are basically identical to a couple found in 17th century contexts in Jamestown and other sites in Virginia, though of course the colonists were sent a lot of outdated stuff.

It's all good stuff, just kinda wondering...

Matthew


I noticed something similar looking at Scottish polearms ('lochaber axes' and 'jedardt staves') purportedly from the late 17th Century vs. others from the mid-16th. The 16th Century weapons generally looked more sophisticated and / or better made.

One reason for this difference is that, in Scotland at least, they were initially importing axe-blades and sword blades, and later they were making more of these locally, sometimes of a lower standard of quality. And maybe by smiths who weren't necessarily specialists in making such weapons.

Another reason is that there was a collapse or shrinkage of some local and exporting military industries in the later 16th through 18th Centuries, and there seems to sometimes be a reversion to older, simpler designs across the board. For example matchlock smoothbore weapons were in use long after rifled barrels and wheellock, snaphaunce and so on were invented.

Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum

Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Polearms before 1400
Page 2 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2 All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum