Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Very strange and long rapier Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
M Hermes




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Tue 26 Sep, 2023 7:15 am    Post subject: Very strange and long rapier         Reply with quote

Hi,
It's been a while since I posted anything.
I won this cup-hilt rapier at an art and antiques auction this week. It was described as a 19th/20th century example. Judging from the photos of the blade of this rapier, I made an offer on it because the blade seems much older to me. Today I picked it up and finally had the chance to see it in person. Although this type of weapon falls outside my comfort zone, I can only conclude that it is a strange case. The length is the first thing you notice. The total length is 144 centimeters, the length of the blade is 118 centimeters! That is, as far as I can tell, very long for a rapier. At the very base it is 42 mm wide and 7mm thick.
It is decorated with figures and has a fuller of 33 centimeters. The blade is hand forged and there are a few superficial cracks visible. In general the blade is still reasonably sharp. However, the point is round, but it is of course possible that it has been adjusted at some point.
The cup is also strange. It is hand-forged, the traces of hammering are clearly visible on the inside. It is decorated with chiseled figures. On one side an angel-like figure and an eagle. On the other side something that looks like a coat of arms and an unknown figure. The last two are inlaid with copper wire or something similar, the other two figures still show remnants of the same material under a magnifying glass. One of the arms attached to the inside of the cup once came loose and was repaired with a screw and nut.
Who knows what this is? Is it really a 19th century copy or is it somewhat older?



 Attachment: 189.58 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 145.22 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 80.29 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 136.85 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 185.4 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 177.48 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 118.28 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 105.09 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 176.29 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 106.18 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
M Hermes




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Tue 26 Sep, 2023 7:26 am    Post subject: Some more photos         Reply with quote

Some more photos of this strange rapier


 Attachment: 206.73 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 77.6 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 190.33 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 159.98 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ryan S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 04 May 2012

Posts: 353

PostPosted: Mon 02 Oct, 2023 10:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe that the eagle is actually a griffin, and the angel is possibly a harpy. I am not sure if that helps with anything. I am not sure if the reflecting light in the picture with the coat of arms is obscuring more details, but I can´t identify any charges, just the ordinary. Maybe, the auction has more information?
View user's profile Send private message
Ryan S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 04 May 2012

Posts: 353

PostPosted: Mon 02 Oct, 2023 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think that the other figure might be a coat of arms too. I marked up a version of it. The green could be a frog mouthed helm with a crown, the yellow: the shield, the red: mantling, and the purple an collar for an knightly order. I don´t know if that helps to identify it.


 Attachment: 162.15 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Sioux City, IA
Joined: 14 Mar 2015
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 422

PostPosted: Wed 04 Oct, 2023 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange and long rapier         Reply with quote

M Hermes wrote:
Hi,
The total length is 144 centimeters, the length of the blade is 118 centimeters! That is, as far as I can tell, very long for a rapier. At the very base it is 42 mm wide and 7mm thick.


The few museums that actually give the blade length of their rapiers generally - as far as I'm concerned - show blades of 95-105 cm, though some websites claim we have historical rapiers of 125 or even 135 of blade length. Even reproductions don´t go over 108/110 cm. It doesn't mean your blade is fake, but if authentic it would be a very special one.

On the hilt parts, it looks Spanish to me. Not just because of the cup hilt, but the shape of the pommel is identical to Vasco da Gama's flamberge Montante with complex hilt.

Some rapiers with apparently OAL in Paço dos Duques Collection:
https://pacodosduques.gov.pt/monumentos/paco-dos-duques/colecao/armas/

“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
View user's profile Send private message
M Hermes




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sat 07 Oct, 2023 4:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ryan S. wrote:
I think that the other figure might be a coat of arms too. I marked up a version of it. The green could be a frog mouthed helm with a crown, the yellow: the shield, the red: mantling, and the purple an collar for an knightly order. I don´t know if that helps to identify it.


Hi Ryan,

Thanks for your help! I will try to make a better picture tomorrow and compare it to your drawing.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
M Hermes




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sat 07 Oct, 2023 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange and long rapier         Reply with quote

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
M Hermes wrote:
Hi,
The total length is 144 centimeters, the length of the blade is 118 centimeters! That is, as far as I can tell, very long for a rapier. At the very base it is 42 mm wide and 7mm thick.


The few museums that actually give the blade length of their rapiers generally - as far as I'm concerned - show blades of 95-105 cm, though some websites claim we have historical rapiers of 125 or even 135 of blade length. Even reproductions don´t go over 108/110 cm. It doesn't mean your blade is fake, but if authentic it would be a very special one.

On the hilt parts, it looks Spanish to me. Not just because of the cup hilt, but the shape of the pommel is identical to Vasco da Gama's flamberge Montante with complex hilt.

Some rapiers with apparently OAL in Paço dos Duques Collection:
https://pacodosduques.gov.pt/monumentos/paco-dos-duques/colecao/armas/


Thank you for your reply and the very interesting link!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
M Hermes




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 77

PostPosted: Tue 10 Oct, 2023 3:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ryan S. wrote:
I think that the other figure might be a coat of arms too. I marked up a version of it. The green could be a frog mouthed helm with a crown, the yellow: the shield, the red: mantling, and the purple an collar for an knightly order. I don´t know if that helps to identify it.


Taking good photos turned out to be difficult, so I just made a drawing of it. The first is a coat of arms surmounted by a crown. The other a face with a crown above it. Perhaps the face of a king or queen?



 Attachment: 143.73 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 148.12 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ryan S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 04 May 2012

Posts: 353

PostPosted: Thu 12 Oct, 2023 1:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Seeing the drawing, I think the second one might just the head of a woman wearing some sort of medieval headdress and a necklace. Although Art Nouveau sometimes has headdresses with things dangling from the side.The other one is looks like a coat of arms in a cartouche, but I can´t make out the design, except for the bend sinister, which is often a mark of illegitimate birth. The bend appears to have hatching marks that go horizontal, meaning that it is blue. My feeling is that it is not a British arms, as the crest is missing, and the Brits are stricter about crowns and supporters and also just my impression. If there was a guess about what the charges are, then I could search for that.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Very strange and long rapier
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum