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Bartek Strojek
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 Posted: Thu 09 Jun, 2022 11:59 am Post subject: Virtual Mail models by M.Wijnhoven A.Moskvin, M.Moskvina |
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Haven't seen it ever posted on myArmoury, or almost anywhere, really, and it's a shame, since it's some really terrific work.
Very detailed data about several preserved pieces of historical mail from 2nd century BC to 11th century AD.
With attempts at recreating weight (per given surface) and properties of given mail weave.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S129620742030515X
Here is Youtube chanel with short videos detailing given mail fragments:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvYvU1gULO653ugTwLPsxBA/videos
Not sure what to think about generalizing about theoretical shifts in trends of mail trough the centuries like in this fragment for example:
| Quote: | | During Late Antiquity thickness and rigidity became once more very important, while during the medieval period up to the 10th century we see more a balance of all the properties of mail. |
I would rather guess that Stary Jankovii mail is just some particularly heavy weave for a cataphract or some other very heavily armored rider, and other combatants in 4th-6th centuries. would be wearing more "normal" mail.
As far as I am aware, there's mail from Chersonesus that looks to be of at least as heavy weave, and it's probably from 10th to 12th century.
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Graham Shearlaw
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jun, 2022 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Given the tiny number of samples i'd be weary of assigning any trends.
The Stary Jankovii mail is interesting as its so much of an outlier, and while it can be view as some kind of indestructible super mail with its far dense weave an thick rings.
Its also a economic item from the labour view point, not only are there fewer rings but the wire is much larger, dozens of passes thru a draw plate have been save from production.
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Bartek Strojek
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| Posted: Thu 16 Jun, 2022 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Graham Shearlaw wrote: |
Its also a economic item from the labour view point, not only are there fewer rings but the wire is much larger, dozens of passes thru a draw plate have been save from production. |
On the other hand, wire that substantial/thick is heavy on the tools, punching solid rings 2 times 2.9 mm wide, out of almost 2mm sheet, must have been hard. Same with drifting a holes in overlap.
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2022 1:19 am Post subject: |
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I've read the article a while ago.
Personally I think it would be really interesting if someone could push this even further and develop a comprehensive model for design considerations and parameters of historical mail armour. Something which could help us determine why a certain shirt was made the way it was or why mail evolved towards a certain direction.
Factors like internal and external diameter of the ring and its thickness, the density of the weave, the flexibility of the piece, the metallurgical qualities, the strength of the rivet or closing method, the coverage provided and the weight per surface area.
Say I wanted a piece of mail covering my chest to be as protective against spear thrusts as possible. Would I want a flexible or a stiff set of mail, do I want thick rings or thin rings, do I want a dense weave or an open weave, do I want welded links, round rivets or wedge rivets etc.
Then once we have established an "optimal" design for this you would want to know the downsides. Does it not protect against cuts as well as other designs, is the design very costly or very heavy, does it impede mobility more than another type.
I hope some of you can share your thoughts on this matter to direct me to a work in which all these considerations are analyzed.
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2022 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Graham Shearlaw wrote: | Given the tiny number of samples i'd be weary of assigning any trends.
The Stary Jankovii mail is interesting as its so much of an outlier, and while it can be view as some kind of indestructible super mail with its far dense weave an thick rings.
Its also a economic item from the labour view point, not only are there fewer rings but the wire is much larger, dozens of passes thru a draw plate have been save from production. |
I think that someone could relatively easily obtain some numbers on the economic side of arms and armor, as experimental archaeology. Since I assume people already make mail by hand, they could time how long it takes to produce a certain amount of various types of mail. Additionally, the material needed could be measured, and historical records could be referenced. There may not be enough historical data, but I think that a ballpark idea of relative costs would give an idea how much cost played a roll. The same thing could be done as far as weight. From this test, we can see that the mass ranges from .26 to .96 per unit area. That is almost four times the mass! If a heavy shirt weighs 15 kg, then the light version would be less than 4 kg. That is an 11 kg difference. Not insignificant.
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