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Graham Shearlaw
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 Posted: Thu 09 Jun, 2022 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | | Javelins are better than arrows for punching through shields and armour. |
Strangely that's something that I also see being noted by Historians.
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I consider myself another historian with the same opinion (because the sources and physics both tell us that it is true) so it isn't all that strange.
| Quote: | | I think it was Heath who says that Irish javelins, or at least some type(s) of them, were capable of penetrating armor: ("Monstrelet describes Irish foot-soldiers at Rouen in 1418 as 'having only a stocking and shoe on one leg and foot, with the other quite naked, having no trousers. They had targets, short javelins and large knives of a strange sort.' (...) The javelins or darts he mentions were capable of piercing haubergeons and plates according to one account; 3 were normally carried." Armies of Middle Ages, vol. 1). |
I suspect that the greater prevalence of body armour at the end of the Bronze Age is why archers (both foot and chariot) were phased out in favour of javelineers. |
Javelins pair well with spear an shield, and give's rise to a more aggressive style of warfare.
Your all moveing as a group for shared protection and you have to get close enough, so near that you could charge your enemy in order to throw a javelin.
Its not the relatively safe archery duels (tribal wars still feature bow an arrows in some places.) but an effective way of forcing one side to consead the ground.
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Mon 20 Jun, 2022 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Gregg Sobocinski wrote: | | Quote: | | Thanks that helps. He does seem to be mostly to be using broad headed darts. |
The broad headed darts are a more recent video. He’s been doing this for years, even going so far as to enlist a competitive javelin thrower. It still might take awhile to find what you seek, as I don’t think youtube search is very good. |
I have looked through his videos.Tod tries a couple types of war darts/fletched javelins, but they all have a very broad head. He does show some pictures with leaf blade and pointed heads, but except for the plombata, most look not to be very good at armor. He specifically says they are probably good against flesh and cites a commentator who says this "As for the anti cavalry it comes from a passage by someone name Dymmok during the late 16th century. "more noisome to the enemy, especially horsemen, then it is deadly. And tended to kill only unarmored men if it killed at all." Another account was from Moryson during Tyrone's rebellion mentioning the kern "assailed horsemen aloof with casting darts."
My guess is that this is a plate armor development. Since Tod´s test with the broad headed bolts against cloth armor showed the broad headed bolts were better against cloth than bodkins, then the broad headed darts would be ideal for horses and infantry wearing only cloth. They probably wouldn't go through plate armor any way.
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Mon 20 Jun, 2022 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote: |
Irishmen at Codice de Trajes, 16th century.
I think the Irish at Stoke Field (1487) would be armed with javelins and cheap sidearms (like knifes). But a dart like this does seen to easily go through mail. |
That is an interesting picture, one that raises questions. Why is the only armour a plate around the arm? Is the piper a woman? The text says that this is how the men and women warriors in Ireland dress.
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Mon 20 Jun, 2022 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That is an interesting picture, one that raises questions. Why is the only armour a plate around the arm? Is the piper a woman? The text says that this is how the men and women warriors in Ireland dress. |
We might note this isn't the original, which doesn't have a caption in English on it.
Anthony Clipsom
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Mark Millman
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| Posted: Mon 20 Jun, 2022 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Folks,
This image of the original manuscript page is on line at ResearchGate as part of James O'Neill's paper, '“Their skill and practice far exceeding their wonted usage”: the Irish military revolution, 1593-1603'.
You can see digital images of the Códice de trajes in the on-line manuscript collection of the Biblioteca Nacional de España (National Library of Spain; please note that much of the site, including the manuscript collection, does not have an English-language version). I have not used BNE's image of the page here because it's a two-page spread, with a blank page on the right, but it is of higher quality than this one. It's image 69 of the BNE's scan. Regrettably I cannot make out the marginal notation. The original German captions (the manuscript is German, not Spanish) are written in Roman block letters at the tops of the pages that have them.
According to O'Neill, Irish women tended not to have battlefield roles during the late Elizabethan era. Although the manuscript was probably produced four or five decades earlier (the BNE simply calls it a sixteenth-century document, but the British Library dates it at 1547), this piper still seems likely to be either a youth or a man who shaves his face.
I hope this proves helpful.
Best,
Mark Millman
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Mon 20 Jun, 2022 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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Both figures are men.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Tue 05 Jul, 2022 8:24 am Post subject: |
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As far as Irish darts go, I recently came across a fascinating source: Jean Creton's work (Harley MS 1319 at the British Library) that describes his trip to Ireland with English forces under Richard II. According to an 18th-century translation by George Earl of Totness, Creton wrote that no coat of mail was proof against Irish darts, which pierced both sides. Totness's translation isn't clear on whether these darts that pierced mail were thrown from horseback or on foot; the text suggests Irish warriors used their darts in both circumstances. Creton provided a picture of mounted Irish warriors with long darts. These darts/javelins don't have broad heads.
Overall evidence indicates that even lighter darts/javelins can potentially hit harder than at least simple warbows when thrown at a run, & that heavier javelins/spears might hit harder when thrown with only a step or a few steps.
One curious example of troops who threw spears comes from 17th-century China:
| Quote: | | By Ming-Qing transition period however, Chi Jiao Bing underwent significant changes to their tactics and became primarily spear-throwers. They carried a cotton blanket in one hand, and dragged a broad-handled long spear by the spearhead in the other. During battle, Chi Jiao Bing would throw their spears at their enemy while advancing quickly, picking up any spears that missed to throw again. Those with cotton blankets used them to shield against enemy arrows and even arquebus shots, while those without blanket simply went to ground immediately as soon as they saw gun smoke, then charge again after the salvo. Once they reached enemy line, they would drop their blankets and use their spears in close combat normally. |
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