[Jeff Cierniak]

This was a not super scientific experiment of a Tod Cutler Antenna Dagger vs. 6mm ID half riveted half solid steel mail. It is sewn onto two layers of linen and two layers of sturdy canvas, the backing was fairly dense 3" furniture foam but then a cold steel buckler.

I tried three different attacks at 50% power and then close to 100%. I was wearing mail sleeves and steel hourglass gauntlets (pictured) to give a bit more weight and simulate an armored combat. I tried sottani (underhanded stab, forehand grip), roversi (downward blow from left, ice pick grip), and mandritti (downward blow from right, icepick grip). I am a relatively strong guy with I would say fair technique.

Sottani: 50% power did no visible damage. 100% partially cut into two rings a bit and did penetrate the garment beneath, but only just barely. Superficial wound at best.

Roversi: 50% power cut into rings a bit and resulted in some deformation. 100% cut deeply into rings and resulted in more deformation and close to breaking a ring on a couple of attempts, but fell short. Did penetrate garment, but would result in only superficial wounds again.

Mandritti: I managed to break a solid ring! And pop a rivet on one next to it. One of the pictures shows how much I was able to push the dagger through after the fact, as the cold steel buckler would not allow penetration. I think this could have been a "fight ender" potentially if the one stabbing was also grappling and in an advantageous position. Could result in some pretty good bleeding if in the right spot. Other hard attempts caused a good amount of ring deformation and cutting deeply into rings, but I only managed to break through the one.

The dagger is completely fine, perhaps slight blunting/very slight rolling on the tip, but I did several very hard strikes. If you look closely, the leathers on the thumb of my gauntlet did not fare as well This wasn't super scientific, but showed me that it is no easy task getting through mail with a dagger. Certainly possible, and two combatants colliding in armor could probably generate more force, but not easy. I feel like it would still take a certain amount of luck with a dagger, i.e. hitting a spot that perhaps the rivet or ring just wasn't done as well or a spot that has been previously compromised. No hard conclusions, but it was enlightening for me! I do have video if anyone wants to see but it was super windy and cold so I was having a tough time recording properly.

Thanks to Tod for the great and affordable dagger. Just might have to get myself a rondel as well to compare!

[Dan Howard]

http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189

[Jeff Cierniak]

I'm well aware that my mail isn't perfectly historical, but thank you for the input!

[Bartek Strojek]

Seeing that blade's pretty broad, it doesn't look like a bad penetration at all!

What's the thickness of the wire, approximately?

[Jeff Cierniak]

I don't have calipers so approximate, as you asked for, is the best I can do. Just under 1mm it looks like. The weave is pretty dense, though.

[Chad Arnow]

Jeff,
Cool test. Thanks for posting it. I had that dagger for a while. They’re really good for the price.

[Dan Howard]

[Jeff Cierniak]

All good, gents, and yes I love the dagger! It was never meant to be particularly scientific, just give myself as a harnischfechten practitioner -some- idea of what it might take to actually get through since we talk about targeting he gaps so much. Not that I'm ever going to hit my training partners that hard.

[Jeremy V. Krause]

Really, most of these types of tests are just for fun anyway.

Tod, who does some more rigorous testing will be the first to state that the results really aren't especially applicable in drawing concusions about the effectiveness of different types of armor and weaponry.

We need more historically made steels and irons to even approach making statements on the properties of armor and weapons.

This dagger, for instance, is likely harder and more resilient than nearly %100 of what would have been seen in period. And Dan has already mentioned the myriad of issues around using modern made mail.

We simply don't make stuff like they used to.

It's still fun though.

[Leo Todeschini]

Thanks Jeff,

That was really interesting and in fact I am looking to do a very similar test with a rondel I made using hand made materials for the knife, though the mail will likely be Indian.

As Jeremy says this kind of thing is mostly fun as is my testing in honesty, but what I do believe is that it gives you an indication of what is going on rather than leaving you not knowing anything.

Yes my blade steel is likely harder and tougher. The maille is an interesting point and has of course been 'done' in that thread however my opinion is that maille could be iron, steel, burnished iron, work hardened steel or possibly even case hardened, riveted, riveted and solid, pin riveted, wedge riveted, thicker or thinner, flat or round, or again I understand, even welded. Lets not even get into the fabric defences under....

What this leads me to think is that any statement along the lines of "that is not representative maille" is essentially meaningless, because by all the odds it will be representative of some maille, somewhere and if you made the maille in 0.2% wedge riveted, 7mm diameter, 1.2 thickness round, 4 in 1 or whatever is the most common combo, any test would be defunct against the other infinite combinations. QED what can we learn form this?

If we assume that the maille is sub-standard to period (though not to all I suspect), I think there is a take away here. Maille is tough and the point energy humans can generate in this stabbing configuration is not enough to seriously compromise the maille and lastly the work here is valid and helps add just a little more understanding to the protection offered by maille.

Thanks Jeff.

My thoiughts....

Tod

[Graham Shearlaw]

[Dan Howard]

There is another problem: the mail links we have today rarely have much in common with those links when they were first made.

1. Iron increases in volume as it oxidises.
2. Mail has a lot of material removed when being cleaned after excavation.
3. Mail abrades when it is being used so the links at the end of its life are significantly thinner than when they were first made.

[Graham Shearlaw]

[Jeff Cierniak]

[William P]

[Jeff Cierniak]

Not that I'm aware of. I may test mail that I make myself at some point (rings from iron skin and I set the rivets myself) if I can bring myself to hack at my meticulous labor But that will not be with scientific instruments etc. The rings are probably still flatter than most historical examples as well, and possibly thinner, so...yeah. It's a complicated subject!