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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 847

PostPosted: Wed 13 Nov, 2019 12:37 pm    Post subject: Sword Measurement Protocol         Reply with quote

Hello,

I have compiled a document describing in detail how I measure swords:

Sword Measurement Protocol

None of this is new, but it was all dispersed across posts and articles. It can be used to document any sword, old or new. The aim is to provide reliable measurements that can be shared and reproduced by others. A measuring sheet is included.

Although I had originally started this for my own use, I hope others could find it useful!

Best regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,906

PostPosted: Thu 14 Nov, 2019 12:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good stuff as always Vincent.

I have come to determine flex in yet another way. It is really no more scary for most swords. Grab the foible using your thumb as a fulcrum the rest of your fingers pushing/holding the tip down (or vice versa, or set up a jig). Let the weight of the sword determine the area of most deflection. Granted, that is hardly scientific but for me, easier to visualize at eye level. One can use an open drawer to hold a sword thus and even compare several at once.

Some may be extreme in deflection but a method I have used more and more often.



Cheers
GC
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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 847

PostPosted: Fri 15 Nov, 2019 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Glen,

Interesting idea. The sticky point is that I would like to describe a very standardized way to make the flexibility test, and ideally, one that can be interpreted to infer the behaviour in other situations. So this test should be quantified, and reproducible by other people with consistent results, and should allow one to easily compare swords in terms of how they react when pressure is applied at the tip for example, as in a thrust.

In your method, the troubles I see is first how to measure the deflection accurately, and then how to get from there to tip pressure. I'm not too sure museums would enjoy the sight very much either, but then I'm not a museum conservator Wink

I will keep it in mind. As I've noted, I don't have a good solution to that problem yet!

Best regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,906

PostPosted: Sat 16 Nov, 2019 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes a straight on measurable pressure on a tip would perhaps need fewer variables.

Quote:
In your method, the troubles I see is first how to measure the deflection accurately, and then how to get from there to tip pressure. I'm not too sure museums would enjoy the sight very much either, but then I'm not a museum conservator Wink


I don't think conservators will be enthusiastic of any flex testing method. I discontinued flexing the sword pictured in that matter after several demonstrations because the blade would eventually snap. However, I do feel my "hang" method is generally well within the strengths of an individual build and the extreme shown above does indicate much the same portion of where a blade will deflect if pressed pommel to point. Either method and even the showy over the head strongman pose will usually flex the most at the thinner cross section.

I had generally used the method of pressing against the point until I realized the fine point on my antiques might suffer damage. I do beat some around mercilessly and love the stiff shockwave felt while banging the foible of my French 1854 dragoon against a solid, while never doing a press against the point. I just know it from the alternate of flexing a bit by hand.

It is much easier to generalize a bit instead of looking for a specific measure of numbers here. In my own experiences, the distal properties will show where the flex is going to occur anyway, with the pointy third of a blade where one should hope to be where flex occurs. It could be cross referenced with waggle and geometric points of rotation but it will be the material properties of a blade that determines how the blade will flex (ie physical dimensions expecting a spring/deflection at a given pressure).

Cheers
GC
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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 847

PostPosted: Sat 23 Nov, 2019 12:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
Yes a straight on measurable pressure on a tip would perhaps need fewer variables.

But needs too much pressure on tip for my taste as well. I especially have problem with it and sharp points: you need something hard enough to prevent the sword from piercing as it disturbs the measurement, but if you just do it on a hard plate there is a risk that the tip might be damaged, and apparently this matches your experience.

You're right that another aspect of flex measurement is where the max deflection is, which depends on the load of the sword as well...

I agree that It is generally possible to get a feel for these aspects quickly, but the whole point of the protocol is to put numbers to these things. Like most properties, they could be inferred from precise enough measurements of the cross-section, but this computation is fairly involved, and measuring directly seems preferable to me. Same thing as with pivot points, nodes etc.

Best regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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