Extant examples of XVIIIc blades with 'S' shaped crossgurad? -- myArmoury.com

Hass Fernen

Hello, I am looking for examples of type XVIIIc blades with 'S' shaped cross guards and fishtail pommel? Are there any such examples in museums or even in art?

I'm also wondering whether enamelling was done in the late 15th the early 16th century on scabbard fittings like in the 13th century, and if you have any examples of these.

In addition to this I am looking images of painted scabbards occurring in the late 15th century to early 16th century.

Also any examples or art of serpent designs in medieval art from the 15th to early 16th century a more slithery and knotted serpent than the attached, similar to viking style serpents (be it on scabbards, fittings, paintings, clothing)

Time line doesn't have to exact, preferably from the late to early 15th and 16th century, but anything from the 1400s to the end of the 1500s is good for me.

I included some examples of what I am trying to describe

Craig Peters · Posted: Fri 01 Mar, 2019 5:39 pm Post subject:

Hass,

I can't say regarding serpent designs for scabbards, but the Visconti of Italy sometimes used a serpentine dragon motif on some of their coins. Attached is a coin of Bernabò Visconti (1323-1385 AD). His brother Galeazzo Visconti (1320-1378 AD) also had coins struck with a similar dragon motif; however, I personally like the execution of the design on Bernabò's coins better. This design was still in use during the reign of Filippo Maria Visconti (died 1447 AD). After the death of Filippo with no male heir, the Golden Ambrosian Republic briefly held power, only to fall to Francesco Sforza.

Hass Fernen · Posted: Sat 02 Mar, 2019 2:26 pm Post subject:

Craig Peters · Posted: Sat 02 Mar, 2019 8:00 pm Post subject:

Regarding your question about the fish tail pommel, "S" guard and XVIII.c blade:

My initial impression is that this is one of the blade and hilt combinations that seems vaguely plausible, yet represents a "Frankenstein" combination. From what I know of Type XVIII.c, they are an earlier type of blade in the Type 18 family. Many date to circa 1410-1420 AD, although The Sword: Form and Thought lists one dated to circa 1350 AD. There does not seem to be much evidence of this blade type persisting after this date. By contrast, both fishtail pommels and "S" guards appear at least a couple of decades later than 1420 AD. Even then, I'm not aware of any antique swords that combined a fishtail pommel and an "S" guard. I won't go so far to assume it was never done, but I have seen zero evidence of it. Also, you tend to have certain styles of cross and pommel paired together on genuine antique swords, and fishtails are paired with other styles of guard. In conclusion, I think you'll end up with a peculiar sword that does not look right at all.

Here's a thread showing fishtail pommels and the types of guard they pair with. Notice these swords are XVIII.b if they are long swords; no XVIII.c blades are shown: http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=133...ail+pommel

Craig Peters · Posted: Sat 02 Mar, 2019 9:04 pm Post subject:

By the way, the early XVIII.c sword I mentioned has a fairly wide but narrow bar cross. It's pommel is similar to Albion's Alexandria. If you had a sword like this made, paired with a scabbard stamped with the motif of the Visconti dragon, you'd have a a decently historically plausible set.

Hass Fernen · Posted: Mon 04 Mar, 2019 8:57 am Post subject:

Craig Peters · Posted: Mon 04 Mar, 2019 6:05 pm Post subject:

I'm wondering if the sketch might have been inspired by the sword of Svante Nilsson Sture: https://www.albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-svante.htm
I'm not sure how the blade of this sword is classified in Oakeshott's Typology; it might be a Type XVIII.c. You'd have to ask Peter, himself. At any rate, you can see the classic Type XVIII.c swords (like the one the Albion Alexandria is based upon) do not normally have an "S" shape guard.

Hass Fernen · Posted: Wed 06 Mar, 2019 6:41 am Post subject:

Dennis Courneyea · Posted: Mon 18 Mar, 2019 12:21 am Post subject:

I keep seeing that type 12 (S shaped) guards are typical for XVIIIc swords, and the idea seems to have come from Ewart Oakeshott himself, yet I've never seen any evidence to back this up. Are there any examples of this combination, either in art, or extant swords? The, admittedly few, historic examples I've seen of this type all looked Albion's Alexandria, having what is I guess a hexagonal/octagonal type 4 guard (or is it a type 8 guard without the écusson?).

Dennis Courneyea · Posted: Mon 18 Mar, 2019 6:55 am Post subject:

Hass Fernen · Posted: Mon 18 Mar, 2019 8:23 am Post subject: