[Michael A. H.]

I am thinking about putting together a working kit to represent a late 10th/ early 11th century Anglo-Saxon Norse persona of ”upper middle class” standing. So far I have (1) an Albion Reeve with fairly ”authentic” scabbard by Tod, (2) a Seax and axe from Damian Sulowski, (3) a home made longbow and arrows (with both small bodkin and broad head points) that comes in at 45 lbs draw weight - a new somewhat heavier version is in the works, (4) a spear with head from GDFB and home made ash shaft, (5) a large round shield that is way too heavy and will be replaced soon with a lighter version.

Clothes are planned as winter projects - my 9 year old daughter is keen on helping :-)

Right now I am looking at a helmet and mail armour (ringbrynia), and I was considering these items from this vendor:

Helmet: http://spqr.se/product/vikingahjalm-h076/

Mail: http://spqr.se/product/ringbrynja-ch003/

The helmet is listed as ”viking” helmet, and is not a reproduction of a specific find, but has elements that I ”think” would work for the time period, location, and persona imagined - the butted mail neck protection can be easily changed for riveted mail. The mail shirt is round ring riveted, and of unknown provenance, but looks a little what Ulfbert sells - my guess: made in India, but the price is reasonable, even if quality might be hit or miss. I am thinking round riveted is right for the period aimed for ...

My question is: are the helmet and mail shirt reasonably ”appropriate” for the the time period (late 10th century), and would they be something a person of mixed Anglo Saxon / Norse background might use. I am not attempting to be over the top 100% authentic (my time machine is out for service right now :-) so authentic will have to wait), but I want something that would not make professional historians slap me on the back of my head ;-)

Thanks for all your wisdom,
Michael

[Dan Howard]

The mail looks nothing like medieval European mail. The links resemble soda can ring pulls. It is typical of the cheap mail coming out of Indian workshops.

[Michael A. H.]

ok - so any suggestion where (in Europe preferably) I might find a mail shirt that is more ”accurate”, but does not cost an arm and a leg?

[Dan Howard]

The only thing that is reasonably affordable would be mail made from alternating rows of butted and solid links. It looks far more authentic than Indian-made riveted mail.

[Stephen Curtin]

What strikes me as "wrong" about this helmet is that it combines features such as the check guards and half mask with a conical shaped skull. It just doesn't look right to me.

[J. Nicolaysen]

[Arne G.]

[Johan Thörnqvist]

As previously said by others, stay away from SPQR's helmet, it's not good reproduction of anything. The company itself is also a bit dodgy if you ask me.

I would instead recommend that you check out "Helgi's True History shop" http://truehistoryshop.com/product-category/helmets/early/. Their collection of early medieval helmets is way better.

[Michael A. H.]

ok - thanks all - back to the drawing board then. And thanks Johan for the heads up on SPQR - I had picked them mainly because of their location in Sweden (where I live).

So the consensus is a straight spangen helm with nasal guard (aka ”Norman” helm) would be more appropriate for a 10th century Anglo Saxon Norse ... are there any other scandinavian versions out there, i.e reproductions based on nordic finds that date to that era? Are there pics available?

Thanks for the link to the russian helmet source - they look fairly well made, and hopefully come with liners and adjustable straps.

Any suggestions on a chain shirt is appreciated.

So long for now

[J. Nicolaysen]

[J. Nicolaysen]

I haven't taken the plunge for a hauberk or byrnie or mail shirt of any form. It's worse than useless to hold up any sort of modern made piece on this forum since there was apparently only one rarefied individual who seemed capable of making mail, and though I had given him a deposit on a bishop's collar, he quit the business after a year of signing on (although he refunded the deposit honorably.)

So no one likes Indian Mail, but no one ever offers alternatives. I feel your pain. If you are on Facebook, you might look at these individuals/outfits:

Heena Ahmad
Ashish Kumar
Armoured Up (Uk Vendor)
Thomas Blitzer aka Historically Patterned Mail who also has a website: http://www.historicallypatternedmail.com/

I only know a little bit about mail, since the various topics here always degenerate and bore me, so I can't give a personal recommendation on any of the above. But some day I'll probably work with one or two of these people. If you haven't already read Dan Howard's Feature, please start there: http://myArmoury.com/feature_mail.html

Good luck!

[Dan Howard]

[T. Kew]

The best mail maker that I know of who's working right now is Isak Krogh Hantverk in Germany. Unsurprisingly, it costs - but if I wanted mail for jousting or the like he would be my first choice by a long way.

He (and several others) can do you tailored work with the Indian made links, but he can also do full reproduction work.

[Michael A. H.]

Thanks for all the input - yes royal oak armories in Canada would be great but they have at least 1.5 years waiting time (not taking orders now due to length of the waiting list), and similar for Thorkil - he has some great stuff too, but only one helmet in stock for a reasonable price (around 350 Euro), but it is a little to ”slavic” for my aimed for persona
Gnezdovo helmet
http://www.thorkil.pl/Gnezdovo%20for%20sale.htm

Of course the ”narrative” of my imagined ”Anglo-Saxon Norse” persona could include some time spent with the Swedish Rus in the east :-). And thus bringing back such a helmet, but that might push it a bit too far ...

And yes, J. Nicolaysen, I should choose sides :-) but my targeted persona is a bit based on the story of Uhtred in the Last Kingdom series by Bernard Cornwell (the books, not the somewhat lame TV series), and the 10th century provided most likely some cross pollination of cultures in the British Isles during the close proximity of Anglo Saxons and Norse invaders - this, and the fact that Anglo Saxon and Norse cultures (incl some material culture) share a lot in common, including similarities in clothing styles, weapons, and even religion (before the evil Christians arrived).

In any case, I am still stomped in where to look for a helmet, the helmets on the Russian site (Helgi) look a little thin, and I find no info on material thicknesses used. Basically the consensus seems to be to look for a segmented spangen helm with nasal, or a type of Gjermundbu helmet (I would like both with aventail), but I am still looking for reasonable prices (no more than 500 Euro), and not extremely long wait times ...

Same for the mail shirt ... there seems to be either super expensive (and wait times of years), DIY - which is not an option right now with 3 small kids under 10, or crapy mail that falls appart when used, rips your clothes, etc ...

Frustrating ...

[Dan Howard]

One of the benefits of the above butted mail construction is that it can be done in my lap at night in front of the TV. The main reason why I don't make a lot of riveted mail is that I have three kids and can't hide out in the workshop for required length of time. Butted mail can be done quietly in the house with minimal tools and work-space. Using solid links in the construction not only makes it look more authentic and increases its strength, but it seriously reduces the assembly time. It will take some time, but time spent watching TV is wasted anyway. May as well do something productive with your hands. Add up all of the hours that you have spent watching TV and surfing the net over your life and imagine how much cool stuff you could have made during that time.