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David Ballard




Location: Arizona
Joined: 27 Aug 2018

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2018 9:43 pm    Post subject: Help Starting Research and Reproduction         Reply with quote

Hi All,
I just joined and am blown away with the amazing information here. I look forward to becoming a participating member of this group. I'm going to be looking at the articles and forms here but I was hoping to get all of your expertise and advice to help me start off in the right direction.

I'm interested in recreating a soft kit. I need help knowing where to find historically accurate information (I feel like everything I see online is modern incorrect garbage), examples of the various soft kit parts, and any tips in recreating those pieces.

I'm not sure what time period I want to have my kit be from, maybe you can help me identify this. I'm wanting to carry an arming sword, buckler, pouch, Rondel dagger, and Bullock dagger (these two daggers are worn together right? The rondel for defense and the bullock for everything else?) So what time period would you see people walking around with this get up?

Where can I find examples of all the different parts of the soft kit for this time period? Oh and when it comes to suspending the sword and other components was there a way to suspend your sword by straps so you can swap out for a different sword instead of making a new belt specific for each sword scabbard? I don't want to have a different belt for each sword I want to carry if at all possible.

Thank you all so much for your advice and input.

David B.
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JG Elmslie
Industry Professional



Location: Scotland
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Reading list: 28 books

Posts: 257

PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2018 5:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bollock Dagger, not Bullock.
One is a pair of testicles, the other is a cow. You dont see many cow-shaped daggers...

Now that out the way, I would be very wary of your bit about
Quote:
Rondel dagger, and Bullock dagger (these two daggers are worn together right? The rondel for defense and the bullock for everything else?)


It may be more accurate that a rondel is for a specifically military application, the bollock dagger is more commonly seen in a civilian context, though also seen in a battlefield context. As such, if a person owned both, I would expect that they would only wear one at a time (being festooned with daggers strikes me as a reenactorism), with the rondel accompanying full harness, and the bollock worn in a purse, when in soft kit.

Now, regarding when, those two are generally likely to suit a date of between about 1350 to 1550, so you're still left with a two century window for those two items alone.

Arming sword and buckler, well, again, that would be anything from 1250's, through to the 1550's, depending on the style of sword and buckler - a round buckler with a type XIV sword is entirely appropriate to i.33 from c.1300, while a type XIX with finger-rings and sidering, and a trapezoidal wave-shaped buckler would be suitable to Marozzo's sword and buckler 2 and a bit centuries later.

So my suggestion there would be to really think more about the geographical area, the social standing, and the particular time period which really interests you, and to start to focus in on what appeals to you - there's such a range between Italian swordsmen in the early 16th C, and a german or english sword and buckler at the start of the 14th C, that you really should nail down your target choice, and then things like the choice of what knives (military and civilian cutlery), clothing, headwear, footwear, and the likes can be properly defined.
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David Ballard




Location: Arizona
Joined: 27 Aug 2018

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2018 10:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey JG Elmslie,
Thank you for your response, very informative. I didn't realize I was typing Bollock incorrectly my bad.

I like your logic when it came to the daggers. I am a HEMA practitioner and we go through Fiore dagger plays and my instructors have taught that you would be carrying the Rondel dagger because it was good at going through the layers of wool worn when in civilian clothes so I guess I assumed that you would have both. But your logic makes sense because you can use Fiore dagger plays with both types of daggers.

In regards to this segment:
"So my suggestion there would be to really think more about the geographical area, the social standing, and the particular time period which really interests you, and to start to focus in on what appeals to you - there's such a range between Italian swordsmen in the early 16th C, and a german or english sword and buckler at the start of the 14th C, that you really should nail down your target choice, and then things like the choice of what knives (military and civilian cutlery), clothing, headwear, footwear, and the likes can be properly defined."

What books, webpages, or resources do you personally recommend I use to help me see the different types of civilian and military clothing/armor/weaponry and to learn about the details of that time period.

Once again thank you very much for replying and your help.

David B.
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Harry Marinakis




PostPosted: Fri 31 Aug, 2018 3:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think you're going about it backwards - you are putting together some items and then trying to figure out what time it fits.

Instead, figure out what time period interests you and put together a well-researched kit that fits that time period. What JG said. Be specific: Exactly what year? What social standing? What job? What town? Answering these questions first makes it a lot easier to research details.

Great resources?

Illuminated manuscripts (try manuscriptminiatures online)
Archive.org (online) has old books in PDF format
Look at the BOOK link on this website (Features.Reviews.Collections.Albums.Forum.Books)
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David Ballard




Location: Arizona
Joined: 27 Aug 2018

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed 05 Sep, 2018 9:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Harry for your input. I think you make a good point. And thank you very much for your resource list. I will come back once I figure out my direction.
David B.
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Jens Nordlunde





Joined: 06 Jan 2004

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep, 2018 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am collecting Indian weapons, but you can colleat whatever you want - isīt is, however, a stony way to walk.
Someone once said to me, if you buy a kilo of irone, you should also buy two kilo of books, and read them - and he is right. The books should not only be on weapons, but also on history.
So when you have say 50 kilos of iron, you can, to my oppinion start to research.
Happy research :-).
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 427

PostPosted: Sun 09 Sep, 2018 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: Help Starting Research and Reproduction         Reply with quote

David Ballard wrote:
Hi All,
I just joined and am blown away with the amazing information here. I look forward to becoming a participating member of this group. I'm going to be looking at the articles and forms here but I was hoping to get all of your expertise and advice to help me start off in the right direction.

I'm interested in recreating a soft kit. I need help knowing where to find historically accurate information (I feel like everything I see online is modern incorrect garbage), examples of the various soft kit parts, and any tips in recreating those pieces.

Fashion in the Age of Datini has information about the things prosperous men wore and carried during Fiore's lifetime. But if you want to represent an Augsburg militiaman in the 1460s or a henchman at the court of Henry VIII in 1515, you would need a whole different list of sources and books!
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Gregg Sobocinski




Location: Michigan
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 12 books

Posts: 130

PostPosted: Sun 09 Sep, 2018 8:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You also might want to reframe your thoughts about daggers. Most blade profiles on rondel daggers were also used on bollock daggers, but with greater blade variety on bollocks. The difference being more that rondel dagger handles are optimized for stabbing in a military context.

Then again, I donít believe self defense blades lent themselves to daily tasks. If you were going to carry a military dagger, but wanted other blades handy, thatís where the byknives come in.
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Michael P. Smith




Location: Muncie, Indiana
Joined: 11 Jul 2018

Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon 10 Sep, 2018 6:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Harry Marinakis wrote:
I think you're going about it backwards - you are putting together some items and then trying to figure out what time it fits.

Instead, figure out what time period interests you and put together a well-researched kit that fits that time period. What JG said. Be specific: Exactly what year? What social standing? What job? What town? Answering these questions first makes it a lot easier to research details.

Great resources?

Illuminated manuscripts (try manuscriptminiatures online)
Archive.org (online) has old books in PDF format
Look at the BOOK link on this website (Features.Reviews.Collections.Albums.Forum.Books)


I come at this from a different perspective, I guess.

If one is joining a group, one needs to start with a date. Or if one is trying to represent something specific. But for a solo practitioner, picking the exact date can be a fluid process. And sometimes starting with some pieces of desired kit can allow us to skip the dreaded "but it COULD have been used" argument. For example, in building my kit (really, more of a display, since I don't really have cause to wear it all that much), I started with the piece of kit that really won my heart... the Lyle bascinet. I love that thing and I'm not really sure why! So, I had a nice reproduction of it made, and then began to build a kit around that. It's dated at 1380-1400, so I looked for complimentary kit to go with that. I got hourglass gauntlets of similar period and style... a globose breastplate. A couple swords from that period, etc. I'm still building the display, but it began with that bascinet.

I do own some stuff from outside that 1370-1420 period that bascinet might plausibly have been in use. I have a Type XVI (Albion Prince) sword that, along with the scabbard, is more 1350-ish. I don't claim it as contemporary with the rest of the kit, though clearly the sword would not have been recycled in 1351! Likewise I own an Albion regent (one of my favorite swords) which I display as the other bookend for my display (I have the Prince on the left, the Regent on the right as sort of the before and after).

Anyway, I just thought I'd offer that perspective. Sometimes it is a piece of specific kit that stokes the imagination and gives us that light feeling in the chest. In such cases, I think it can be a good idea to build an impression around that piece of kit.... so long as the rest of the kit is consistent with that first piece, of course!
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