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James T





Joined: 17 Jul 2018

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul, 2018 4:38 pm    Post subject: Sword         Reply with quote

What about this one?

oakeshott-x-made-of-iron-in-museum-quality-890mm" target="_blank">https://subastas.catawiki.es/kavels/10154033-medieval-cross-knight-sword-type-oakeshott-x-made-of-iron-in-museum-quality-890mm

This was in the examples listed above above. To me it looks just like one I saw in Copenhagen 2 years ago. It also looks just like one sold on Bonhams except it doesnít have a copper inlay. What about it tells you itís a fake? Do any of you think itís legit? I think there are a lot of people in Eastern Europe that go out with metal detectors and find these. Iím not saying thatís good or bad (I know itís illegal). I think there an argument for both. That being said why do you think itís fake? Iíd love to know what to look for. Thanks!!!
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Jeff B.




Location: Germany
Joined: 09 Mar 2017

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed 22 Aug, 2018 6:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Xavier,

are you saying that you bought the number 7 sword? and now you are testing everyone on these? Not sure I understand your post. Nor did you say, when asked about how it all started, if you bought one or not?


Last edited by Jeff B. on Wed 22 Aug, 2018 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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James T





Joined: 17 Jul 2018

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Wed 22 Aug, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Xavier,

Thanks for the follow up. I didn't buy #7 or any of those listed, however I did buy one a while back on ebay that looks very similar in form to #7. It's a different sword, however there are a lot of similarities, such as the overall shape, cross guard, pommel, corrosion, etc. If #7 is definitely a fake I would imagine mine might be too. Since my last post, I've decided to rent an XRF to test the chemical composition of the metal. That should actually tell me quite a bit. If it's a modern day iron/steel or an ancient bloomery iron/steel.

I was mainly curious what about the #7 identified it as a possible fake? It looks pretty legitimate to me, but I am not an expert.

I've heard that a Piotr Pajewski out of Poland makes fakes that have fooled "experts" in the past. Anyone on here ever hear of him?

Thanks,
James
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Jeff B.




Location: Germany
Joined: 09 Mar 2017

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed 22 Aug, 2018 11:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James T wrote:
Hi Xavier,

Thanks for the follow up. I didn't buy #7 or any of those listed,


Hey James, I think maybe you got mixed up, I was addressing Xavier about his first post. Just in case you thought it was him answering you. I have not seen an answer to your post or mine from him.

I guess I should have started my post out better and more clear, sorry. I have since changed it.

thanks,
Jeff
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James T





Joined: 17 Jul 2018

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Wed 22 Aug, 2018 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff, I noticed it right after I posted it. I should have read your post better. Thanks!
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Zach Gordon




Location: Vermont. USA
Joined: 07 Oct 2008

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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2018 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can you post your results from the XRF test, I am curious.
Thanks!
Z
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sat 25 Aug, 2018 2:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James,

See this earlier thread regarding sword #7: http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=36788
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James T





Joined: 17 Jul 2018

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sat 25 Aug, 2018 7:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing that link.

I will definitely share the XRF results. I should have the unit in 2 weeks or less. Itís the newest model and can measure phosphorus pretty well along with the heavier elements. Iím mainly looking for P and Mn amounts. Hi P would be more common with bloomers iron. Mn would indicate a modern day iron. Any other suggestions on what to look for from a composition standpoint? Iíll share pics and data once itís done. Iíve got a couple of other items to scan too. Should be fun.

When I got the sword I was leaning towards itís real, but after this thread and some other info that Iíve obtained (Iíll share with the XRF results) Iím now leaning as a really good fake even though I want it to be real. If itís bloomery iron itís legit.

I do bladesmithing as a hobby and have made some swords out of iron meteorite so I know what goes into making a sword. Iíve also made crucible steel and a faker would not go through that amount of work to smelt their own iron or make their own crucible steel. They would use an iron bar and forge it out. I donít think they would expect someone to do XRF analysis.

Thank you everyone for all of the good info in this forum.

Iíll be back in a couple of weeks with results to see what you think.

PS if you want to see a couple of my meteorite swords being made...
https://youtu.be/KV315rpNI-A
https://youtu.be/dIY32_JihFY
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Jordan E. Williams




Location: California
Joined: 25 Mar 2016

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Sat 25 Aug, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If catawikis experts are calling this item real I have no problem believing that they would willingly sell fakes.
https://auction.catawiki.com/kavels/20431055-heavy-us-calvary-sabre-1862

His Imperial and Royal Majesty Hordan Vilhelm the Great, by the Grace of God, German Emperor and King of Prussia, Margrave of Brandenburg, Burgrave of Nuremberg, Count of Hohenzollern, Duke of Silesia and of the County of Glatz, Grand Duke of the Lower Rhine!
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Jeff B.




Location: Germany
Joined: 09 Mar 2017

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2018 12:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jordan E. Williams wrote:
If catawikis experts are calling this item real I have no problem believing that they would willingly sell fakes.
https://auction.catawiki.com/kavels/20431055-heavy-us-calvary-sabre-1862


Are you just making blind accusations or did you contact them and ask them about it?
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Jordan E. Williams




Location: California
Joined: 25 Mar 2016

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Sun 26 Aug, 2018 10:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff B. wrote:
Jordan E. Williams wrote:
If catawikis experts are calling this item real I have no problem believing that they would willingly sell fakes.
https://auction.catawiki.com/kavels/20431055-heavy-us-calvary-sabre-1862


Are you just making blind accusations or did you contact them and ask them about it?


Ames made no cavalry swords in 1862. Plus it doesn't even have the Ames 1860 style grip. I don't see a need to contact them if they have an expert on their team listed on the page where it's being sold. That said, I was hasty in my accusation. I'll send them an email about it.

His Imperial and Royal Majesty Hordan Vilhelm the Great, by the Grace of God, German Emperor and King of Prussia, Margrave of Brandenburg, Burgrave of Nuremberg, Count of Hohenzollern, Duke of Silesia and of the County of Glatz, Grand Duke of the Lower Rhine!
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2018 12:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff,

You wouldn't be Jeff Browning, Catawiki expert for the aforementioned swords, would you? ;-)
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Jeff B.




Location: Germany
Joined: 09 Mar 2017

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Jeff,

You wouldn't be Jeff Browning, Catawiki expert for the aforementioned swords, would you? ;-)


Dear Craig,

Why, would that be a bad thing?
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Jordan E. Williams




Location: California
Joined: 25 Mar 2016

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2018 11:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No reply to my email enquiry but the page for the fake Ames 1860 has been taken down. In my opinion that cinches the dishonesty. Why would an honest seller after all not reply? If the "expert" had even a cursory knowledge of the fake American Sword market they would have noticed it was a fake. To my eyes it looked like the Windlass or older model Universal based on the grip shape, pommel cap, markings, and scabbard throat.
His Imperial and Royal Majesty Hordan Vilhelm the Great, by the Grace of God, German Emperor and King of Prussia, Margrave of Brandenburg, Burgrave of Nuremberg, Count of Hohenzollern, Duke of Silesia and of the County of Glatz, Grand Duke of the Lower Rhine!
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Jeff B.




Location: Germany
Joined: 09 Mar 2017

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2018 1:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anyway yes it is Craig, I thought it would be more obvious :-)

I am indeed Jeff Browning and yes I am one of the Experts for weapons and Militaria. I just did not want to bust in on this thread and start any problems, hence the very short questions. However I thought it was time to clear the air and stop some of the baseless accusations and complete untruths.

I work hard at my job and I love my job, and I do not take a kindly to being falsely accused (but is one of the down sides of the job) nor the Company I work for falsely accused. Especially when we are working so hard to make Catawiki just the opposite, a great place to sell and buy Militaria and Weaponry, and where everyone can feel safe in doing so. Knowing that we work hard to provide a safe place and that if we do make a mistake, we will own up to that and make it right.

You can read my short bio at the Catawiki site but just a quick tidbit for you all here. I am a US Army Vet, and also a Law Enforcement Vet. I grew up with a weapon in my hand on the farm and was hunting and trapping for the first 15 years of my life. I spent more time in the woods with my gun and my dog than I did with people. I have been dealing in weapons, Militaria and antiques for 30+ years and it is my passion, and I am privileged to do it for a living.

So with all that being said, I can guarantee everyone here, that I have NEVER, and would NEVER purposely sell anything that I knew was a fake! I can also guarantee you that Catawiki would NEVER stand for any auctioneer/expert who was doing so, and they would probably be fired on the spot.

I was not going to make this long one, but I think it is important that people understand how we work at Catawiki and to get rid of some of the Myths and untruths being circulated by people that are either upset about buying a fake or others just making accusations without facts.

Even though I have been doing this for a long time does NOT imply in any way that I know everything, nor do I claim to know everything. I will be the first one to stand up and say "I dont know", but I sure will do my best to find out. I will also be the first to stand up and admit to making a mistake and will always do my best to make it right and try to make sure that it does not happen again. One of those ways of furthering my education is forums and other clubs that I belong to. I know it seems far fetched sometimes but I like to think of forums as a place where one can come and learn, and share knowledge, and make others aware of problems, or just being able to discuss our passions of what ever it is without all the other bad stuff. I learn new things every day and I hope to continue to do so until the day they bury me.. :-)

Just like the swords that Xavier was talking about, he showed that it was a fake and he was COMPLETELY refunded. But his post here was confusing and contained untruths. such as, "What is surprising is this weapon was seen and taken in hand by "experts", that is COMPLETE BS!! We do not get anything in our hands. We do the best we can from photos and this is not easy, and of course it will not always be perfect.

Yes we will make mistakes but we will ALWAYS do our best to make it right. I still find it strange how he was testing everyone here on a fake sword that he bought, but never mentioned that, and then proceeded to give collecting advice? It just seems that some people would rather just make things worse and spread untruths which inturn it just makes our jobs harder, does not help their case and not to mention it makes it bad for everyone else in our collecting community.

The same for comments such as " Even without knowing how to discern between genuine antiques and fakes, the estimates give it away.", sorry Craig, not true. I see 100's of such cases every day, where the prices does not match the item but the items are authentic. It is just that the seller does not have a clue of what they have. Yes in some cases it can be a red flag but but we can not go on this alone. Just like with these swords, they were very good fakes and they fooled me, and even some members here stated as such, but because I just happen to see this thread, I was able to put a stop to this seller. That is how it should work, everyone helping each other for the good of our collecting community and not trying to throw people or companies under the bus.

So I hope this has helped to clear things up and how we work at Catawiki, and if not then please ask. I hope it also opens up the communication between the members here and me/Catawiki, as we want to hear from you, we want you to tell us when we are wrong and maybe someday we will have perfect auctions, at least that is our goal. You can contact me here on the forum, or directly at j.browning@catawiki.com and please feel free to do so anytime, as I always love talking shop! :-)

Have a good one everyone!
Jeff


Jeff Browning
Expert Militaria & Weaponry / Military Vehicles / Air Guns

"God created men, Samuel Colt made them equal"

T:+31 652 09 7944
E: j.browning@catawiki.com
W: www.catawiki.com
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Jeff B.




Location: Germany
Joined: 09 Mar 2017

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2018 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jordan E. Williams wrote:
No reply to my email enquiry.


maybe because they were trying to make a friendly reply that was based on fact and conjecture!.
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Jeff B.




Location: Germany
Joined: 09 Mar 2017

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2018 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"If the "expert" had even a cursory knowledge of the fake American Sword market they would have noticed it was a fake."

And like I was saying, then there are THESE people! Sad, truly sad :-(
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Jordan E. Williams




Location: California
Joined: 25 Mar 2016

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2018 2:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff B. wrote:
Jordan E. Williams wrote:
No reply to my email enquiry.


maybe because they were trying to make a friendly reply that was based on fact and conjecture!.

Alright, so at 3:00 still no reply even though you're here reading up and replying to the thread. A friendly reply could be this short - "Hi Jordan, thank you for your input. The auction has been pulled and the buyers and seller have been notified."

My problem with this whole situation is this. The people here who saw these items and correctly diagnosed them as fake don't have jobs at catawiki as experts. I understand mistakes can be made but those are a lot of mistakes, and in the case of the Ames Sword fake a pretty easy fake to spot. Most people buying online or even in person won't know what to look for, and so they trust in the opinions of the site, especially when it presents experts as a sort of security.

Maybe I was too harsh in my comments, and for that I apologize. But at the same time people are placing trust in catawiki and it's costing them money at the end of the day.
So I hope you understand where the frustration on my part is from. That said, I should have restrained from posting when upset and put more thought into my comments.

His Imperial and Royal Majesty Hordan Vilhelm the Great, by the Grace of God, German Emperor and King of Prussia, Margrave of Brandenburg, Burgrave of Nuremberg, Count of Hohenzollern, Duke of Silesia and of the County of Glatz, Grand Duke of the Lower Rhine!
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff B. wrote:
Just like the swords that Xavier was talking about, he showed that it was a fake and he was COMPLETELY refunded. But his post here was confusing and contained untruths. such as, "What is surprising is this weapon was seen and taken in hand by "experts", that is COMPLETE BS!! We do not get anything in our hands. We do the best we can from photos and this is not easy, and of course it will not always be perfect.


Items presented on that site are done so with an implied "stamp of approval" from an expert. As a casual viewer of that site, it does appear to me that said items have been examined and determined to be real and an estimated value has been attached by said expert. This is why we at this site do not claim to be experts or officially make assessments or appraisals. It just isn't possible for us to do so with any degree of confidence as far as I'm concerned.

Having owned my own site for many years, I can tell you that assessing an item based on photographs alone is incredibly difficult. There are many examples that strongly lean one way or another but even those are always left with doubt. We fall short of giving definite answers to such things as authenticity without having attached disclaimers that indicate the limits imposed by, well, many factors: a lack of expertise, a lack of first-hand examination, the possibly of photographs being retouched or altered, etc, etc.

I would strongly advise any site that presents items for sale or auction who are attaching an expert analysis onto them work very hard to provide context with plenty of disclaimers and a description of the methodology used to form the expressed opinions. Failing to do so provides a false sense of confidence to the potential customer and ends up being a real disservice to everyone involved.

Jeff B. wrote:
Yes we will make mistakes but we will ALWAYS do our best to make it right.


My personal opinion would be that such effort is better spent on the front end with the assessment methodology rather than on the backend with customer service.

Jeff B. wrote:
I still find it strange how he was testing everyone here on a fake sword that he bought, but never mentioned that, and then proceeded to give collecting advice? It just seems that some people would rather just make things worse and spread untruths which inturn it just makes our jobs harder, does not help their case and not to mention it makes it bad for everyone else in our collecting community.


I agree with this. I do not like how any of this was presented. I actually posted into this topic previously that I did not appreciate the game that was being played. I prefer a more matter of fact methodology and still believe it would have better served the topic's author and the community as a whole.

This topic is a mess.

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Jeff B.




Location: Germany
Joined: 09 Mar 2017

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon 27 Aug, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jordan E. Williams wrote:
So I hope you understand where the frustration on my part is from. That said, I should have restrained from posting when upset and put more thought into my comments.


I do understand Jordan and thank you for your reply. I hope now that you understand that none of this is on purpose and we really do our best to get it right, and we are constantly trying to improve. Again, you have my contact details so just drop me a line, I would love to hear from you.

Thanks again,
Jeff
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