[Michael Mercier]

Ok, I think I have a good find at a local antique shop, but I wanted to get everyones opinion. There is a seller there that, as the item's tag describes, is a "civil warish sword" for $190. He seems to think it dates to around the 1860's but when I saw it it screams early 1800's or possibly revolutionary war. It looks as if it was found in the corner of a barn so it has a coat of rust over the entire weapon. The handle has only about 3/4 of the wood remaining and as I looked closer a fragment of leather and wire wrap could be seen.

There are no blade markings and it is almost identical to the picture I have posted. The picture is NOT the actual one I have seen. The biggest difference is that the guard is made entirely of steel. Not brass like in the picture.

Any ideas? I want to convice the wife to let me get it, but is this a steal for a neglected piece?

Mike

[Gordon Frye]

Michael;

Just looking at the hilt area, I'd say it's post-1800 (certainly post-1790!). It bears a strong resemblance to many of the "artillery" sabres that were made for the consumption of the US Militia during the War of 1812 era, and for a good 25 years or more after that as well. If the blade is fairly short, i.e. under 32" in length with a deep curve to it, then it was probably for foot use (either for Artillery or Infantry NCO's and Officers). If the blade is LONGER than that, with a deep curve or not, it's (again) PROBABLY for Cavalry or Horse Artillery. With Steel mountings, heck, if it's a broad blade with a deep curve, it could be a knock-off 1796 British/1811 Austrian Light Dragoon sabre, or a Starr, or a number of other nifty swords from the era. Check the point: if it has what can be referred to as a "hatchet point" then it may well be of the 1796 style. (hopefully some kind soul will post some pics of said Light Dragoon sabre and you can then compare).

Part of the problem I've seen is that there were so bloody many swords of this basic type pumped out for every German and Italian principality, as well as for aspiring countries in South America, and of course for the American, British and French markets in this era (1790-1840) that it's darned hard to track them all down. But you might check out Peterson's "American Swords", since he has lots of excellent pictures and descriptions of same. Who knows, might be from a known maker and you'll have quite a jem on your hands! But no matter what, most of these swords are very well made, and handle beautifully, so you'd be getting something worth your while in any case.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Michael Mercier]

Thanks for the info. The blade is definately longer than 32". I would say it is of average cavalry length (comparing to civil war era swords). If time permits I will try to head back to the shop and snap some pictures of it. It appears to have been a well made weapon, its just too bad its in the condition that it is. There are probably 4 to 6 nicks in the blade that appear to be from another weapon, but of course that cant be confirmed. It really could have been anything.

Maybe I can get those pics in a couple days.

Mike

[Gordon Frye]

Yeah, it's sad how many really cool swords have been abused (probably more likely than being nicked in service) like that, leaving the blades looking rather like cross-cut saws rather than swords. I have a VERY cool cutlass from that period, but unfortunately kids or nimrods got a hold of it at some time in the past and clanged away with it against another similar object, resulting in a pretty ugly edge. Of course this sort of thing happens in service, but the cutlers tend to grind those ugly nicks out...

I look forward to seeing the pictures, if you can get them, but in the mean time you might look at this article from SFI on the development of the 1796 Light Dragoon Sabre. Some of the pictures may be of some service, though there aren't a lot of them: http://swordforum.com/articles/ams/cavalrycombat.php

Cheers,

Gordon

[Michael Mercier]

If you browse swordforum at all, you might have seen a posting of mine about an extensive weapons collection (originally obtained between 1880 and 1890) I examined last month. Although most of the weapons were either European or Persian there were 4 US civil war swords. One was a foot officers saber minus the guard. The blade was ornately etched, but has faded with time. It appeared to have been in the fight for its life since I lost count at over 80 seperate blade nicks. I believe these to be marks from another weapon rather than careless abuse. It gave me a strange feeling as I held it to think that whoever was defending themselves was an exellent swordsman and with all those marks you have to wonder how many soldiers died from his skill.

Mike

[Gordon Frye]

Michael;

Can't say I read your thread on SFI, though it sounds pretty nifty. I don't tend to go into forums that I can't browse prior to signing up, to see what it's about No problems with signing in prior to posting, just a thing with me about being able to look first, before I "buy". But their articles are of the highest quality, so I laud them on that matter.

The sword you described sound interesting though. Certainly had the damage been done in combat, and the user was victorious, he would have had the damage removed later on (unless he wanted for some reason to keep it intact as a "Souviener" of the fight, ) Sounds like you had fun checking out all of those swords, though!

Cheers,

Gordon

[Nathan Robinson]

Gordon, SFI allows guests to browse their forum. There is no need to register to read it. That is, unless you're banned from there as I am.

[Sean Flynt]

You might want to look into Prussian cavalry sabres of the late 19th/early 20th c. as well. I have an aluminum-hilt parade saber much like this but dating from the early Nazi period. They retained the earlier forms, but downsized them for ceremonial use and gave some fashionable aluminum hilts. Your antique might be WWI vintage (?). See if you can spot a maker's mark.

[Michael Mercier]

ummmm.....dare I ask why you are banned from SFI Nathan?

[Patrick Kelly]

[Gordon Frye]

[Michael Mercier]

There are no markings on it at all. None on the blade, none on the guard, and since some of the handle is missing you can see the tang and there are no markings on it either.

I have to wonder though, which would be the better buy. This one for $190 (which might be talked down) or a British 1822 pattern infantry officers sword. It has no scabbard and still retains the skin and wire grip. That seller was asking $225, but since he has had it for over a year I am sure I can get that price down too.

[Sean Flynt]

Get the one you like best. That'll be the best value, no matter how much you spend.

[Michael Mercier]

Ok, I finally got a pic this weekend. It isnt the clearest, but I think you can easily see the style and the fact that it isnt in the greatest shape. As I said before, I think its much earlier than civil war era. Any new ideas now?

Mike

[Gordon Frye]

Judging from the langets, I would definitely say earlier rather than later. I suspect that Napoleonic era would be a reasonable call, probably Germanic in origin. My lack of specific knowledge in this era is too great to go past that broad generalization.

Gordon

[Sean Flynt]

I'm with Gordon on the langets. Does the blade have a spear point or hatchet point? Maybe somebody has their copy of Swords and Blades of the American Revolution handy....

[Gordon Frye]

[Sean Flynt]

I'll walk way out on a very thin limb and say it's an American militia sword of German manufacture, 1800-1850. And I wouldn't bet so much as a penny that I'm right.

[Gordon Frye]

[Nate C.]

How about this sword? The langets are very similar.

http://www.antiquearmsandarmour.com/stock_detail.asp?ID=24

cheers,