German messer fighting -- myArmoury.com

Chuck Wyatt · Posted: Thu 24 Mar, 2005 6:46 am Post subject: German messer fighting

Hi All,
A recent post about the upcoming Messers from Albion [url]http://albion-swords.com/albion-sword-news.htm [/url]
Had a couple of people talking about their training with Messers being how brutal and dangerous it was . especially on the receiving end. My question is how did Messer Fighters differ in compared to other swordsman of the time, I understand their was various styles at the time, but what set the Messers apart? Was it more of the techniques or the mindset?
Chuck

Sean Flynt · Posted: Thu 24 Mar, 2005 7:56 am Post subject:

There are specific, unique skill sets for messer, as with other weapons (see Talhoffer for a good example). I personally have such a healthy respect for the messer because of its size. It seems large enough to deliver devastating blows (amputations) but small enough to be used up-close. The size and robust tang seem to make the weapon extremely quick, which would also make it extremely dangerous (even in training, apparently). My impressions are based only on casual review of a couple of different messer texts and modern observations of the weapon rather than on first-hand experience. I know there are many folks out there training with messer, though. Maybe they'll post.

R. Laine · Posted: Thu 24 Mar, 2005 8:06 am Post subject: Re: German messer fighting

Sean Flynt · Posted: Thu 24 Mar, 2005 8:11 am Post subject:

You might be interested in the messer training at ARMA's international gathering in 2003. Follow the ARMA link below and look about 2/3 of the way down the page for the messer training photos. I love those messer wasters!

http://www.thearma.org/photos/Gathering03/G03.htm

Hans and Alex are German, and their site is here:

http://www.schwertkampf-ochs.de/willkommen.html

Martin Wallgren · Posted: Thu 24 Mar, 2005 8:51 am Post subject:

I´m not an expert on Messerfighting, I have mostly been the one basched up by a messer. But I can say that the Nagel is of importance. It make it possible to parry strikes in ways the set up for fast replies, deadly and intense. Another thing with messers is that they were not only worn by soldiers, there is depictions of farmers killing snakes with them and constructionworkers carrying them at work.

This is interesting because it makes them the weapons of brawlers and other streetfighters and this is reflected in some of the ways the are used in the manuals. This may also have influenced Hans Talhoffer to make the comment on the first plate of Messerfighting in his 1467 manual, "Here they fight with messers, god help Us all!". A similar statment is in the Dagger section, also a weapon of barbrawls and streetfights.

Chuck Wyatt · Posted: Thu 24 Mar, 2005 9:22 am Post subject:

Martin, Sean, Rabbe Thanks for your info and links. The more I read The more i'm getting excited about Messers!!
My interests in historical weapons have always been drawn to the Lower rank soldiers, Men at arms and streetfighters.
Something about the no nonsense aproach.
Rabbe, you mentioned the shape of the hilt and the pommel made effective striking and hooking manouvers.
Could please clarify a bit more? This has really sparked my interest.

Chuck

Christian Henry Tobler · Posted: Thu 24 Mar, 2005 9:57 am Post subject:

Hello all,

I suspect there's more work to be done in understanding the cultural context of the messer. I'm not sure these could have been carried about in most towns.

The fight with the messer shares many features with the fight with the longsword. In fact, the very influential 1478 treatise of Master Hans Leckuchner is derived, with changes in terminology for blows and guards, from the longsword Zettel of Master Johannes Liechtenauer. Obviously, it's a closer fight, so it's even easier to come to grappling.

Messerfechten appears not only in those works derived from Leckuchner, but in Codex Wallerstein, various editions of Talhoffer, Paulus Kal, and Gladiatoria. It's a pretty important weapon in the German corpus of fighting material.

There are also some ambiguities in the term 'messer'. It's not clear, for instance, if in his prologue Liechtenauer means by it a falchion like weapon, or simply a knife or dagger. The material in the earliest L. school manuscript, the so-called Dobringer fechtbuch, indicates it can mean dagger too.

All the best,

Christian

Gary Grzybek · Posted: Thu 24 Mar, 2005 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: German messer fighting

Gary Grzybek · Posted: Thu 24 Mar, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject:

Bill Grandy · myArmoury Team

I've been very interested in getting into messer for some time now (there's just only so much time to devote to weapons!), so I've only been able to have a casual study of it's basic use. There appear to be a lot of schielhau type actions, where one would strike downwards with the false edge, which seems counter-intuitive at first but is just wicked cool.