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Keith Larman
Industry Professional
Location: Sunny Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 237
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 Posted: Fri 04 Mar, 2005 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Just fwiw, as I tell my customers there will always be another sword. You may have to wait, but the healthy collector keeps their priorities straight. School, education, family, etc. all come first. Lord knows I've had some marvelous pieces come by me in my world of Japanese swords. When I first started looking at Japanese swords back in the late 70's and early 80's, well, geez, there is stuff I could have had for a song. But I finished school, started a career, met my wife, eventually started a family. I missed many fine swords. But in the larger scheme of things today I don't regret missing any of them... I have more opportunities today but in reality can afford fewer of them. But I appreciate what I have and what I can afford even more because of it.
By the way, the lady who owns the Kilic has a Katar sitting on her shelf that might end up coming "out of the closet" sometime in the future. I need to talk to her about that one.
Anyway, I will take more photos probably today. The kid seems to have a bug of some sort, so I'm not going to be able to do other work today. Looks like a daddy and daughter day. So I'll take my time, set up some lights, and try to get some better shots if the kid lets me.
And in all seriousness, the plan is to put it up on ebay at a relatively low starting bid. The owner said to go ahead and do that. There is obviously always some speculation involved in pieces like this because I don't know enough to see what might be potential problems in the piece. And buyers are going to go only by photos. Heck, by all accounts this sword likely would have ended up in a yard sale at some point. But when she contacted me to take a look at a Japanese piece she had, well, I told her that there were probably better avenues for some of her stuff (that's an understatement). So it's all found money for her and she really did want the pieces to go to collectors who would appreciate them. And given the number of people who've e-mailed me about this and my hesitation to try to put a valuation on it, well, I think ebay might be the best option.
Thanks again Alina and all who helped. Say "hi" to Manoucher for me. He's a good guy and one of the people I miss.
Keith Larman
http://www.summerchild.com
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Keith Larman
Industry Professional
Location: Sunny Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue 08 Mar, 2005 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for the delay in new photos. The kid had a cold which she promptly gave to me. So as soon as she was better I was getting sick...
anyway, a few more photos of the piece. there was a lot of scabbard junk that came off with gentle oiling. Much I left behind...
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Keith Larman
http://www.summerchild.com
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Keith Larman
Industry Professional
Location: Sunny Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue 08 Mar, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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and...
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Keith Larman
http://www.summerchild.com
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Gordon Frye
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Tue 08 Mar, 2005 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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I can't tell if the blade is wootz or not. The metallurgy of Islamic swords really isn't my specialty - though neither are islamic swords in general. Still, those are fabulous pictures, I really have enjoyed looking at this sword.
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Keith Larman
Industry Professional
Location: Sunny Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Tue 08 Mar, 2005 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Alina Boyden wrote: | | I can't tell if the blade is wootz or not. The metallurgy of Islamic swords really isn't my specialty - though neither are islamic swords in general. Still, those are fabulous pictures, I really have enjoyed looking at this sword. |
No problem, Alina. Let me know if there's anything else you want to see. It'll be going up on ebay soon so if you want anymore photos, ask now...
Just an observation from a Japanese sword art guy. The "T" spine is interesting. From a polisher's perspective the spine allows for a really aggressive (as in sharp) edge geometry. And with the T termination about 2/3 up the blade, I would have to guess that a lot of cutting is done up there mostly. Feels right too in the hands for that kind of application. Cutting lower with anything other than shallow slashing would get the blade caught in the "target" once the "T" comes into play.
Really quite an amazing blade. I see no evidence of it ever being bent (usually you can see surface ripples (what Japanese polishers call "shinae") that show where something has bent before). So either it wasn't used much or it is quite durable. And the blade is amazingly clean with only a few nicks and booboos here and there. Interesting looking at this blade and how it was all put together. I can only imagine how devastatingly sharp it would have been when in service. And how fast that thing would come into play and really ruin someone's day.
Very interesting weapon.
Love the circular cartouche too. Really amazing attention to detail in some aspects of this.
I removed the scabbard "gunk" from the blade. And yeah, I can't really tell about the steel and how it was done. It seems to have a grain and was worked, but I can't tell if it was made from a crucible steel like wootz or something else.
Which only tells me I really need to find her a good home with someone who'll be able to really enjoy and study the piece. Too much is lost on me.
Thanks again for all your help. You're a good person...
Keith Larman
http://www.summerchild.com
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Keith Larman
Industry Professional
Location: Sunny Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Wed 09 Mar, 2005 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Well, it's up on ebay with a starting bid of $1000 and no reserve (for the benefit of those who e-mailed and PM'ed about it). My userid is kdlarman. Curious to see how it will go... Either someone will get a great deal or...
Keith Larman
http://www.summerchild.com
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Keith Larman
Industry Professional
Location: Sunny Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Thu 10 Mar, 2005 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Since I put it up on ebay, a few folk have asked for more pictures. So the record of this piece doesn't vanish, I'll add them here too...
If I take more, I'll add more.
Odd thing was that I assumed the crossguard was steel or iron. It is solid, but it's something non-magnetic. I don't want to clean the piece enough to figure out what the material is, but it has me curious. Just thought I should add that detail documenting this.
edit: Oops, some of the pics, especially the blade pics were too large and the forum said "no". So I'll post links to them instead.
http://summerchild.com/islam/update2.jpg
http://summerchild.com/islam/update3.jpg
http://summerchild.com/islam/update4.jpg
Keith Larman
http://www.summerchild.com
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Sertac Canbolat
Location: Turkey Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Thu 10 Mar, 2005 2:54 pm Post subject: kilij, but pala |
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Keith, you have one of the most beautiful example of "Pala" I have ever seen. Kılıc (kilij) is a common name for all of sabre types in Turkish. This is a "Pala" which have a "yelman" (or in other Turkish word zırhdeldi: armour slasher) and die-struck "eyelash" mark in yatagan style (back of the blade have a salient part). İslamic8.jpg have a mark of Prophet İbrahim star, very important İslamic symbol and the phrase "La Fati ella Ali La Seif ella Zulfaghar" also is very important for Alevi (blievers of Ali) sect. May be late 17th-early 18th century. Very good collection piece. "Use it in good days"
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Thu 10 Mar, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: kilij, but pala |
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| sertac canbolat wrote: | Keith, you have one of the most beautiful example of "Pala" I have ever seen. Kılıc (kilij) is a common name for all of sabre types in Turkish. This is a "Pala" which have a "yelman" (or in other Turkish word zırhdeldi: armour slasher) and die-struck "eyelash" mark in yatagan style (back of the blade have a salient part). İslamic8.jpg have a mark of Prophet İbrahim star, very important İslamic symbol and the phrase "La Fati ella Ali La Seif ella Zulfaghar" also is very important for Alevi (blievers of Ali) sect. May be late 17th-early 18th century. Very good collection piece. "Use it in good days"
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Yay! An expert!
Incidentally, not bidding on this sword on ebay has been incredibly difficult for me.
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Keith Larman
Industry Professional
Location: Sunny Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Thu 10 Mar, 2005 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: kilij, but pala |
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| sertac canbolat wrote: | Keith, you have one of the most beautiful example of "Pala" I have ever seen. Kılıc (kilij) is a common name for all of sabre types in Turkish. This is a "Pala" which have a "yelman" (or in other Turkish word zırhdeldi: armour slasher) and die-struck "eyelash" mark in yatagan style (back of the blade have a salient part). İslamic8.jpg have a mark of Prophet İbrahim star, very important İslamic symbol and the phrase "La Fati ella Ali La Seif ella Zulfaghar" also is very important for Alevi (blievers of Ali) sect. May be late 17th-early 18th century. Very good collection piece. "Use it in good days"
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Thank you very much for the information. Do you mind if I quote this in the auction? The more information the better.
Keith Larman
http://www.summerchild.com
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Chris Holzman
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| Posted: Thu 10 Mar, 2005 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: kilij, but pala |
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| Keith Larman wrote: | | sertac canbolat wrote: | Keith, you have one of the most beautiful example of "Pala" I have ever seen. Kılıc (kilij) is a common name for all of sabre types in Turkish. This is a "Pala" which have a "yelman" (or in other Turkish word zırhdeldi: armour slasher) and die-struck "eyelash" mark in yatagan style (back of the blade have a salient part). İslamic8.jpg have a mark of Prophet İbrahim star, very important İslamic symbol and the phrase "La Fati ella Ali La Seif ella Zulfaghar" also is very important for Alevi (blievers of Ali) sect. May be late 17th-early 18th century. Very good collection piece. "Use it in good days"
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Thank you very much for the information. Do you mind if I quote this in the auction? The more information the better. |
Keith,
to clarify, the yelman is the raised false edge.
Chris Holzman
River City Fencing Club
Wichita, KS
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Keith Larman
Industry Professional
Location: Sunny Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Thu 10 Mar, 2005 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: kilij, but pala |
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| Chris Holzman wrote: | | Keith Larman wrote: | | sertac canbolat wrote: | Keith, you have one of the most beautiful example of "Pala" I have ever seen. Kılıc (kilij) is a common name for all of sabre types in Turkish. This is a "Pala" which have a "yelman" (or in other Turkish word zırhdeldi: armour slasher) and die-struck "eyelash" mark in yatagan style (back of the blade have a salient part). İslamic8.jpg have a mark of Prophet İbrahim star, very important İslamic symbol and the phrase "La Fati ella Ali La Seif ella Zulfaghar" also is very important for Alevi (blievers of Ali) sect. May be late 17th-early 18th century. Very good collection piece. "Use it in good days"
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Thank you very much for the information. Do you mind if I quote this in the auction? The more information the better. |
Keith,
to clarify, the yelman is the raised false edge. |
Very interesting. It really is too bad I don't have more time to expand outside of my chosen area. And chris, I'm still digesting your e-mail... Lots of good information... Interesting stuff.
Keith Larman
http://www.summerchild.com
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Alex Oster
Location: Washington and Yokohama Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Thu 10 Mar, 2005 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Keith Larman wrote: | | ...something non-magnetic.... |
interesting... not being too familiar with magnetic properties of metal, I am interested to hear what it might be.
beutiful, btw.
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
My collection: Various Blades & Conan related
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Nate C.
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| Posted: Thu 10 Mar, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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I seem to remember reading somewhere about "silvered" brass (or bronze) regarding 1 or 2 middle eastern swords I've looked at (shashkas I think). That could be what this is. Maybe Alina or someone else can correct me on this. There are several different metals that aren't magnetic, brass, bronze, silver, gold, stainless steel, and copper just to name a few (never go hunting for a brass magnet  ). I hope this helps.
Cheers,
Nate C.
Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt
If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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Keith Larman
Industry Professional
Location: Sunny Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Thu 10 Mar, 2005 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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That would make sense as the material has a sort of silver "sheen" to it. But it doesn't feel like silver to me (I work with it a lot) . But because of the finish I am hesitant to do anything to remove the gunk on the material since I don't want to adversely affect it.
Keith Larman
http://www.summerchild.com
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Keith Larman
Industry Professional
Location: Sunny Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Wed 16 Mar, 2005 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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In case anyone is interested, the piece sold on ebay for a bit over $3000. Now I'm sad to see it go.
On to the next sword to ID and document...
Keith Larman
http://www.summerchild.com
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Thu 17 Mar, 2005 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Keith Larman wrote: | In case anyone is interested, the piece sold on ebay for a bit over $3000. Now I'm sad to see it go.
On to the next sword to ID and document... |
I think that's a fair price for it. I would've been upset to see it go to an auction house for only 1000 dollars. Plus, the fact that it was $3000 makes it so far out of my price range that I can't possibly feel guilty for not buying it 
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Keith Larman
Industry Professional
Location: Sunny Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Thu 17 Mar, 2005 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad it went for a decent price. The lady who asked me to sell it for her isn't exactly hurting for cash, but she's been enjoying the updates and reports as I sell things for her. And I've been putting together little reports for her with what each thing turned out to be, how old, photos I took of them, that kind of stuff.
Keith Larman
http://www.summerchild.com
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Mumtaz Baber
Location: The Shire , UK Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Mon 21 Mar, 2005 3:04 am Post subject: |
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Keith , that's a magnificent sword , a fine piece of Ottoman history . From the pics alone it looks like it has serious prescence about it .
Lucky guy to have had that in your possession for a while .
Alina, I'm sure you''ll own a coupla fine pieces yourself one day
Regards
Mumtaz Baber
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