Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Seeking information on Askeri Museum sword Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Roger Hooper




PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Seeking information on Askeri Museum sword         Reply with quote

I think that I first came across this sword on myArmoury, but I can't locate the thread. Can anyone please tell me more about this sword. It is in the Askeri Museum in Istanbul, which means that it was probably in the Alexandrian Arsenal before that. I figure it must date from sometime in the XVth century, probably the first half.

I am fascinated by this sword. Thanks for any help that you can give me.



 Attachment: 97.82 KB, Viewed: 1167 times
askeri sword_1s.jpg


 Attachment: 97.06 KB, Viewed: 1167 times
askeri sword_2.jpg


 Attachment: 92.32 KB, Viewed: 1167 times
askeri sword_3s.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Mark Lewis




PostPosted: Sat 15 Oct, 2016 5:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Roger,
Here is the link to the thread where I first posted this sword... can't really add any additional information to what little info is there already. It is probably not from Alexandria however.

http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=306442#306442
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Roger Hooper




PostPosted: Sat 15 Oct, 2016 10:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Mark. So, not an Alexandrian Arsenal Sword, maybe Spanish, from the second half of the 15th century.
View user's profile Send private message
Sa'ar Nudel




Usergroups: 
Donating Members

Location: Haifa, Israel
Likes: 16 pages
Posts: 347
PostPosted: Sat 15 Oct, 2016 3:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Probably a Venetian infantry sword, mid to late 15th century.
Lots of these are on display in the Palazzo Ducale, Venice.
[/url]

Small arms curator

ACT - Armed Combat & Tactics, practical fighting with historical weapons.
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Lewis




PostPosted: Sun 23 Oct, 2016 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a higher resolution version of the third photo... the caption is visible and shows that the museum considers the sword to be Spanish, for what it is worth. I agree that a Venetian origin is also a strong possibility - seems to be a lot of similarity between these earliest complex-hilted swords from Spain and Venice.

The museum has another sword with double finger-rings/pas-d'ane and knucklebow, but altogether different in style compared to the first. I think there is no doubt that the latter sword at least is Spanish - very similar swords are shown in a number of Spanish altar paintings.


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark Lewis




PostPosted: Tue 14 Feb, 2017 3:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's another very similar sword to the one originally posted: it's in Valencia, and according to legend is the sword of King Jaime I. Anyway, another Spanish connection. I'm guessing the rear quillon was originally perpendicular to the blade and was bent later... and the fuller is off center, seems like it may be single-edged for most of it's length? The video clip shows the full length of the sword around 40 seconds in.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFhYYGN5E6E
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JG Elmslie




PostPosted: Tue 14 Feb, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Lewis wrote:
Here's another very similar sword to the one originally posted: it's in Valencia, and according to legend is the sword of King Jaime I. Anyway, another Spanish connection. I'm guessing the rear quillon was originally perpendicular to the blade and was bent later... and the fuller is off center, seems like it may be single-edged for most of it's length? The video clip shows the full length of the sword around 40 seconds in.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFhYYGN5E6E


I would be surprised if the true edge quillon/arm had been bent at a later date - in proportion and length, it is entirely characteristic of early knuckle-bow grips of similar style found in a number of examples of single-edged arms.

The sword itself as a whole, I will note is utterly unconnected to Jaime I, unless he was borrowing Grute Piers' and William Wallace's TARDIS*... its a single-edged, fullered blade characteristic of the late 15th century, or early 16th, so about 200-250 years after the death of the historical figure associated with it.

I would say the blade is a type F5b by the typology work I've published, (in fact, the entire thing I'd list as a Type F5b, Style 14 cross. The pommel style is outside Oakeshott's typology and my own, but I'd class it as a Castillon 'C' variant for now. ), and its certainly a single-edged weapon. I've yet to get hold of it to find out if its got a false edge past the fuller or not, so I'm reticent to say anything with absolute certainty till I cant stick my foot in my mouth...

As Sa'ar Nudel has already said, it is another one characteristic of the group of single-handed weapons which contain a good number of single-edged arms. which are generally associated with Venetian ducal guard - there's examples scattered throughout Europe.

On that note the original sword discussed, is a two-edged version of the same style of sword, and almost certainly ended up in Istanbul through the Levant trade routes from Venice, rather than a diplomatic gift - I'd put a bet on that being the case simply on grounds that it doesn't have the characteristic text engraved into the blade most of the diplomatic gifts seem to obtain.

-JGE

*really, I can think of no other explanation for all these historical figures having swords from centuries before or after their death. Must be time travellers, not that people just make up stories about all these swords, right...?
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mark Lewis




PostPosted: Tue 14 Feb, 2017 9:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JG Elmslie wrote:
I would be surprised if the true edge quillon/arm had been bent at a later date - in proportion and length, it is entirely characteristic of early knuckle-bow grips of similar style found in a number of examples of single-edged arms.

Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to the knuckle-bow, but the opposite "straight" quillon on the false edge... do you think this is also in it's original position as is? The bend looks awkward from some viewing angles, and a straight opposite quillon seems more consistent with the other most similar specimens (eg. in the Askeri Museum, the four on the right in Sa'ar's photo).

JG Elmslie wrote:
Must be time travellers, not that people just make up stories about all these swords, right...?

No, never! Laughing Out Loud

I should have made it more clear that I was repeating the attribution to Jaime tongue-in-cheek.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bruno Giordan




PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb, 2017 3:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Venice's empire was the frontier between Europe and the aggressive Turkish Empire. Venetians bore the brunt of the confrontation, alternating war and peace with them, so mixing comemrcial relations and war according to the historical moment.

Theater were often the greek islands belonging to Venice.

The commercial routes from the Turkish domianted areas passed through Venice, while the Spaniards were busy with increasing their americans settlement after Columbus' trips.


The Turks got Costantinople in 1453, last defenders of the byzantine capital were also venetians, with few lucky ones escaping to freedom after defeat.

Despite all these major wars, venetians and turks were also busy making business among themselves. A commercial base of the turkish empires was allowed in Venice, for example, but thewy couldn't settle permanently so they couldn't carry wives as, unlike other populations who could be absorbed by the venetian empire (greeks, slavs, people from other italian states, germans) they were never perceived as assimilable.

The other power that competed with Venice in this area was Genoa, often with bitter disputes between them and the venetians btw, but as far as I know Genoa is not known to have generated some peculiar sword style nor it was known as an arms and armor center: while Venice would have the brescian area producing weapons and armor for itself and export, and later the bellunese area for the making of schiavonas.

So the above sword may have ended up in turkish hands also because of some peaceful trade, even being spanish in origin, in this case, or betetr, being a brescian product in spanish style.
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Lewis




PostPosted: Fri 17 Feb, 2017 6:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have a look at the sword in the background... could it be a depiction of the "Castillon C" pommel? This woodcut appears in an edition of the Spanish novel "Primaleon" printed in Venice in 1534.

View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Seeking information on Askeri Museum sword
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2017 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum