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Harry Marinakis
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 Posted: Mon 30 May, 2016 2:31 pm Post subject: 15th Century scabbard suspension |
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I used this illumination to make a scabbard. The suspension depicted in the illumination is very common in illuminated manuscripts from around AD 1400. Looks like 2 or 3 straps, fairly close together, almost like an upside-down "V."
I've worn my scabbard and it flops all over the place. I can't believe that they really used this suspension method. Think something is missing from the illumination or my interpretation of the suspension method?
Or was this bullshit suspension really used?
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Mario M.
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2016 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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From what I understand, you messed up the strap connections and forgot one strap entirely(the third strap is not visible in the image because of the hilt and pommel).
There are multiple ways of doing it, perhaps copy Tod's version from this video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2OeMstdna0
“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Harry Marinakis
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2016 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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It was Tod's video that prompted me to post this question in the first place!
Easy fix
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Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional
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Harry Marinakis
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2016 4:57 am Post subject: |
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More images of similar suspensions
Top image
Folio 81 recto from the illuminated manuscript Morgan M.394 Bible Historiale, AD 1415, Morgan Library, Paris, France
Middle image
William of Tyre. Historia rerum in partibus transmarinis gestarum, in French, with continuation to 1231. Circa AD 1480. Netherlands.
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Brian K.
Industry Professional
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 727
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2016 5:54 am Post subject: |
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The top and middle one are obviously defying the laws of physics without that front strap. In my opinion, it's there, but not being illustrated.
Brian Kunz
www.dbkcustomswords.com
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2016 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Harry Marinakis wrote: | More images of similar suspensions
Top image
Folio 81 recto from the illuminated manuscript Morgan M.394 Bible Historiale, AD 1415, Morgan Library, Paris, France
Middle image
William of Tyre. Historia rerum in partibus transmarinis gestarum, in French, with continuation to 1231. Circa AD 1480. Netherlands. |
The latter two clearly have a third suspension strap hidden behind the curve of the wearer's hips, because the angles they hang at would be impossible with only the visible straps. The first one may have the strap hidden behind the grip, again, or the artist may have made a mistake or deliberate omission there, or it might just be a particularly poor suspension system. 
IME the third strap - or rather, proper spacing and positioning of the suspension points at both ends, which on this type of system requires that additional strap - and, even more importantly, adjusting all the straps to fit snugly around the wearer are key to a stable suspension system. Often the third strap is simply an extension of the holed end of the belt, fastened to a second buckle near the mouth of the scabbard. In fact, even the later style with simply a narrow belt tied with a single knot around the scabbard can be quite stable if it hugs your body properly.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Mario M.
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2016 7:20 am Post subject: |
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I do not think that the illustrations are necessarily incorrect in the sense that the third strap is obligatory.
The problem could merely be in the length of the straps.
The form he used usually has much shorter straps;
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f6/66/1f/f6661f3efdaa38c7b61632f9a80b82f2.jpg
In this table, the first strap in the F and H design is a mere couple cm from the belt;
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a5/94/08/a5940805db03b65464d098a5810c2c95.jpg
Those that have longer straps, are those that have the third strap(for an obvious reason).
“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Harry Marinakis
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2016 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Thanks everyone
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Harry Marinakis
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2016 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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I fixed the suspension by adding a 3rd strap. Carries much better.
Thanks again.
Mario, where did you get those images that are in your post?
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Mario M.
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2016 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Harry Marinakis wrote: | | Mario, where did you get those images that are in your post? |
Just a quick google search.
“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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This is a standard topic