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Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Tue 05 Apr, 2016 8:37 pm    Post subject: A mistake with dating, or 12th century sabatons+greaves?         Reply with quote

Greetings,

I was lurking around looking at armor parts, and then I noticed this;

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1536/1541/

What gives?

Is this properly dated?

I google-fu'd my way around, but most of the data tied to it is in French.

The man it represents is indeed a 12th century person, but how could that possibly be his leg gear?

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

Posts: 493

PostPosted: Tue 05 Apr, 2016 8:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Could it be a really bad depiction of hosen and turnshoes? because everything else screams 1100s, expect his legs.
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Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Tue 05 Apr, 2016 8:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The greaves perhaps, but the footwear really looks like segmented plates.

Very strange indeed, as the earliest ones I know of show up in the 1280s./1290s.

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
Joined: 27 Nov 2004

Posts: 669

PostPosted: Tue 05 Apr, 2016 9:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In cases like this where out-of-the-ordinary details seem to be depicted, it is important to see the original effigy. 19th century illustrations were often fraught with errors despite all of the artists' best intentions. I have seen many effigies questioned about odd details based on illustrations, and it often turns out not to look much like the actual effigy at all in many cases.... In this case, I cannot find any photos of the effigy in question after a brief search.

-Gregory


Last edited by Gregory J. Liebau on Tue 05 Apr, 2016 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Tue 05 Apr, 2016 9:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I also failed to find any images of the effigy.

Seems like someone is going to have to go there and take some pics.

We need someone who lives near Saint-Benoît-la-Forêt Surprised

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Timm Radt




Location: Germany
Joined: 12 Sep 2011

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed 06 Apr, 2016 12:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all,

the problem with effigies - especially with such ones depicting the founder of an abbey or monastery – that they can be carved post mortem, i.e. possibly some hundred years after the founder died.

The other thing is that figural effigies developped in the late 12th century. But only in the late 13th century they got more and more common.

Judging from the drawing this effigy is typical for the late 13th century and for France.

Cheers, Timm
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,268

PostPosted: Wed 06 Apr, 2016 2:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/about/
Quote:
About the Data

This website is not a primary source, nor is it a secondary source. Instead, this website is a tertiary source; a compilation of information from secondary sources.

Each monument is assigned a year. In the best case, this year is when the monument was created. Failing this, it is the year the represented person died. If even this is not available, an approximate year is assigned based on armour and monument characteristics. The monument's approximate year is clearly marked if this is the case.


The 12th century date is likely the date of death. The date of creation is more likely late 13th, or even early 14th century. And all of the cautions about relying on a line drawing rather than an actual photograph also stand, presuming the monument is still extant.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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Posts: 746

PostPosted: Wed 06 Apr, 2016 7:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mario M. wrote:
The greaves perhaps, but the footwear really looks like segmented plates.

Very strange indeed, as the earliest ones I know of show up in the 1280s./1290s.

I don’t see segmented plates at all. It looks like a fairly standard, if somewhat crude, depiction of maille covering the feet. I can’t say for the greaves, but the feet are pretty obviously depictions of maille.

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Wed 06 Apr, 2016 8:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Smith wrote:
I don’t see segmented plates at all. It looks like a fairly standard, if somewhat crude, depiction of maille covering the feet. I can’t say for the greaves, but the feet are pretty obviously depictions of maille.


Perhaps.
I do not see it.

From what I see, mail on feet is usually depicted with straight lines and nearly always has small perpendicular lines between those straight horizontal lines;

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/effigiesa..._r2181.jpg

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/effigiesa..._r4846.jpg

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/effigiesa..._r2183.jpg

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/effigiesa..._r3964.jpg

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/effigiesa..._r2197.jpg (this one has wavy horizontal lines but still has the smaller, perpendicular lines in between).

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/effigiesa...5_r626.jpg

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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