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Mike Pollard
Location: UK Joined: 22 Jan 2016
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Sun 24 Jan, 2016 8:54 am Post subject: |
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Dan
Yes, he was right (well done) Robert de Boron wrote this 12th/13th century.
Arthur was first mentioned by Ninnius, a 9th century monk.
These: sword in the stone/under stones/in anvils/in molds could be embellishments or maybe Arthur did something like this. It fits my agenda.
There's quite a gap between the the 9th and 12th century though so from my point of view I'll have to be careful how I explain this.
Cheers
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Sun 24 Jan, 2016 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Mike Pollard wrote: | Dan
Yes, he was right (well done) Robert de Boron wrote this 12th/13th century.
Arthur was first mentioned by Ninnius, a 9th century monk.
These: sword in the stone/under stones/in anvils/in molds could be embellishments or maybe Arthur did something like this. It fits my agenda.
There's quite a gap between the the 9th and 12th century though so from my point of view I'll have to be careful how I explain this.
Cheers |
Perhaps I am just restating something you already know but: While not every stone is an anvil some anvils were just stone.
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Peter Spätling
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 24 Jan, 2016 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Philip Dyer wrote: | | Certainly a myth, dark age and laters furnaces didn't achieve the temperatures needed to turn iron into a liquid.. |
That 's not true, it is quite easy to burn your steel with a bloomery, the bigger issue is to get and keep the correct temperature for the production of the bloom. In the 15 century, when casted iron started to become popular the ovens they used for the casting looked like the bloomerys for the "normal steel production". However it took some time until they found out that by refreshing the casted iron the carbon content could be reduced and a steel, which can be used for hardening, can be created.
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Dan D'Silva
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jan, 2016 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Pieter B. wrote: | | Perhaps I am just restating something you already know but: While not every stone is an anvil some anvils were just stone. |
It would help to have the Vulgate text at hand, but the English Prose Merlin, which is supposed to be a translation of it, specifies "a styth of iren." (Also, I misread it at first. The anvil is only half a foot tall. "And thourgh this stithi was a swerde ficchid into the ston." So yes, the sword was lodged in both the anvil and the stone.)
Last edited by Dan D'Silva on Mon 25 Jan, 2016 5:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mike Pollard
Location: UK Joined: 22 Jan 2016
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jan, 2016 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Pieter B.
Actually reminding me of something I had forgotten. Thanks!
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Jeffrey Faulk
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jan, 2016 9:22 am Post subject: |
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There is one flaw with the idea of drawing a sword from a casting mould-- they wouldn't be anywhere near ready to use. Even a high quality casting would still require finishing, hilting up, sharpening, and polishing.
Not to mention that unless you let it cool in the mould, which would take a fair while after pouring as the mould would insulate the metal to some degree, it'd be too hot to pluck directly out anyway!
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Mon 25 Jan, 2016 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Thus making it The Sword in the A&E Dept. Maybe the Lady of the Lake was an ER triage nurse...
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Andrew Gill
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I agree with those who commented to the effect that the sword in the stone story is pure fiction - it sounds to me much like the sort of tall tales usually told about a culture-hero to justify his legendary rule and the resulting golden age, etc. However, for fun and for the sake of suggesting plausible explanations for a work of fiction, perhaps the sword was looted from inside a stone tomb? Among a superstitions people, that would imply bravery on the part of the looter - a desirable trait in a leader. Later this is corrupted into him actually pulling the sword out of a block of stone -then the anvil is added, etc. And then the acquisition of Excalibur from the lake could be a garbled account of the finding of a sword which had been thrown into a lake long before, as an offering (which would make the Lady of the Lake an eccentric mudlark). I think that both of these would probably lend themselves better to a late bronze-age or iron-age setting.
As I said, highly improbable, but possibly ok for a story: "First he steals a sword from the dead, then from the gods themselves! Will this man stop at nothing? To find out, read the next exciting parchment roll..."
Edit: hmm - on reflection, I think a certain Mr R E Howard beat me to it
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Len Parker
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Mike Pollard
Location: UK Joined: 22 Jan 2016
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2016 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Len
That's a good find. I think that would be 12th/13th century wouldn't it?
I'm pretty sure I've seen it written that Odin pierced his side with a spear, then hung himself from the boughs of a tree (arms outstretched like on a crucifix) and died, then the secrets of the universe were revealed to him. Not sure how old that story is!
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Mike Pollard
Location: UK Joined: 22 Jan 2016
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2016 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Benjamin Thorpe translation:
I know that I hung on a wind-rocked tree,
nine whole nights, with a spear wounded,
and to Odin offered, myself to myself;
on that tree, of which no one knows
from what root it springs.
Bread no one gave me, nor a horn of drink,
downward I peered,
to runes applied myself, wailing learnt them,
then fell down thence.
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This is a standard topic