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Mark Lewis
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 Posted: Sun 17 Jan, 2016 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Niels Just Rasmussen wrote: | It's reported as being mid-1400's and with illustration likely from the artist-group called the "Masters of the Delft Grisailles". It is later illustrated examples of the boxed Kastenbrust, though the dating of this manuscript is not very precise. The "Masters of the Delft Grisailles" was active in likely Delft at the convent of St. Agnes from around 1430's according to this website:
Source: http://www.lesenluminures.com/inventory/expo-...lles-20660
So the image is from 1430- to at whatever point the artist group was no longer active. |
Thanks for the followup on the attribution of this book of hours; so it might be a bit earlier than the museum states, too bad it is not pinned down more precisely.
| Niels Just Rasmussen wrote: | Found two examples of a boxed Kastenbrust and a possible breast-like domed Kastenbrust from Gierslev Kirke in the western part of Sjælland.
The church paintings are currently dated 1520-1530 by Nationalmuseet, which seems very late.
Found an older paper (Danmarks kirker, page 1130) of the church, where the dating is 1475-1525. |
Surely this must be a copy or restoration of older paintings? 
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jan, 2016 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Lewis wrote: | | Niels Just Rasmussen wrote: | It's reported as being mid-1400's and with illustration likely from the artist-group called the "Masters of the Delft Grisailles". It is later illustrated examples of the boxed Kastenbrust, though the dating of this manuscript is not very precise. The "Masters of the Delft Grisailles" was active in likely Delft at the convent of St. Agnes from around 1430's according to this website:
Source: http://www.lesenluminures.com/inventory/expo-...lles-20660
So the image is from 1430- to at whatever point the artist group was no longer active. |
Thanks for the followup on the attribution of this book of hours; so it might be a bit earlier than the museum states, too bad it is not pinned down more precisely.
| Niels Just Rasmussen wrote: | Found two examples of a boxed Kastenbrust and a possible breast-like domed Kastenbrust from Gierslev Kirke in the western part of Sjælland.
The church paintings are currently dated 1520-1530 by Nationalmuseet, which seems very late.
Found an older paper (Danmarks kirker, page 1130) of the church, where the dating is 1475-1525. |
Surely this must be a copy or restoration of older paintings? |
The paintings in Gierslev church are originals (whether the images are copied from somewhere else is off course hard to say).
I suspected and was right that the dating is largely based on the ornamentation (style of the flower guirlandes) in the church. Source: Footnote 44, page 1148 in Danmarks Kirker.
The Gierslev Kirke paintings are very similar in the ornamentation to the "Chapel of Christian I" (also called "Helligtrekongers Kapel") in Roskilde Domkirke (where the Skt. Jørgen figure was from) and also two smaller chapels in Roskilde Domkirke that can be surely dated to 1511.
The Christian I's chapel was ordered to be built in 1459. It was to be the new grave chapel for a new knightly order (later to become the Order of the Elephant) and also de facto became the chapel of the House of Oldenburg of which Christian I was their first member on the Danish throne). After the chapel was erected, it would have started to be painted around ~1465.
According to this site the chapel was built in 1462 (unclear if erection started that year or was finished)
Source: http://www.astoft2.co.uk/sjaelland/roskildedomdk.htm
According to the new (2014) book "Danske Kongegrave I-III" the chapel was built 1464 (so perhaps started 1462 and finished 1464?).
So since Gierslev church really is a small village church I assume the scholars "postponed" its decoration to the time after the master-painters had finished their work in Roskilde Domkirke sometime after 1511 and possible relocated to take work in other churches, thus giving the dating 1520-1530.
In my opinion that makes it certain that the Gierslev paintings can't be dated before 1460 as you need to have build the Christian I's chapel in Roskilde Domkirke for this new style to be introduced in the country and we see that the style is also used again in the same church, apparently securely dated to 1511.
So Gierslev Kirke really with all certainty show "boxed" Kastenbrust post 1460, but whether then Gierslev paintings are 1460 or 1520 are a bit more uncertain.
I would think it likely that work in Gierslev Kirke probably occured between the two great works in Roskilde Domkirke, the first starting in 1465 and before again in Roskilde 1511 -> so 1470-1510 perhaps seems more likely than 1520-1530.
What is interesting is that the boxed Kastenbrust does not appear in Roskilde Domkirke (only domed Kastenbrust with or without fluting), so I would hypothesize, that perhaps around Gierslev was a local nobleman with antiquated armour?
Found newspaper articles that Gierslev Kirke was the focus of a major research by Nationalmuseet in november-december 2014 by Kirsten Trampedach & Lena Östlund.
Source: http://www.e-pages.dk/nordvest/853/65
Newspaper interview with Kirsten Trampedach & Lena Östlund about the paintings in Gierslev Kirke:
Source: http://www.e-pages.dk/nordvest/868/19
Their conclusion is that the master-painter in Gierslev was very talented and that the paintings are very unusual in having the background filled out with details. It also shows great detail in faces where they are preserved.
The paintings have NEVER been restored in any way or chalked over (which makes it the ONLY church in Denmark where it is the case), so the church has actually become THE SPOT for learning about the original techniques.
It would appear that some scientific papers will be forthcoming in the near future.
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jan, 2016 6:09 am Post subject: |
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A small article (2008) about a preserved Kastenbrust from Deutsches Historisches Museum in Berlin.
Inventarnummer W2312 (Alt 06.627). It was originally from the "Toerringschen Rüstkammer" at Schloss Jettenbach" and acquired by the museum in 1906.
It's a domed Kastenbrust with many flutes - 12 ! (pictures on page 4).
Source: http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/artdok/423...t_2008.pdf
Weight: 1700 g.
Height: 30 cm
Width: 35,5 cm
Depth (Tiefe): 13 cm
A more detailed article on the piece should be in the first volume of the "Zeitschrift für Waffen- und Kostümkunde" (2008)
Last edited by Niels Just Rasmussen on Mon 18 Jan, 2016 9:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jan, 2016 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Since kastenbrust is literally case- or box-breast, I have difficulty with the oxymoron "globose kastenbrust". I don't think any of the rounded styles can be called box-like, even if they're contemporary.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jan, 2016 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | Since kastenbrust is literally case- or box-breast, I have difficulty with the oxymoron "globose kastenbrust". I don't think any of the rounded styles can be called box-like, even if they're contemporary. |
True. Etymologically I'm totally for that.
But then only the truly box-shaped forms should be called Kastenbrust and not any of the domed forms (that will include both preserved Vienna- and Berlin examples as neither are box-shaped with sharp angles, but rounded instead).
So "Kastenbrust" being only the truly box-shaped ones and then one should call the "domed" rounded ones for
"Wölbtenbrust" (= Bulging chest  ) or something like that.
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Adam Bodorics
Industry Professional
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Mark Lewis
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| Posted: Mon 18 Jan, 2016 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Adam! Looks like a great resource.
According to the caption the statues are dated 1424-28? There is a some resemblence here with the soldier at far right in the Wurzach Altarpiece.
 
Here is a great drawing by Hans Burgkmair the Elder, circa 1500-03, showing that the classic boxy kastenbrust survived in art to a late date. There are similarities with the armour shown Konrad Witz' altarpiece in Basel... I wonder if it could have been the inspiration?
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Mark Lewis
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| Posted: Thu 21 Jan, 2016 5:08 am Post subject: |
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Here is another concretely dated example, the earliest yet. It is a copy of the Golden Legend produced by an Alsatian workshop whose scribes were in the habit of dating the last page of their manuscripts upon completion. This one is dated 1419... now possibly this might refer only to when the text was completed, if the illustrations were added separately later. The scene here shows St. Maurice.
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg14...1c5ed44b96
A slightly earlier copy of the Buch von Troja ("Troy Book") by the same workshop, dated 1417, includes many scenes of armed figures. All seem to be shown with globose-profiled breastplates, with the one possible exception of the figure in the foreground below.
http://digisam.ub.uni-giessen.de/diglit/hs-23...b4f686ff9e
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Timm Radt
Location: Germany Joined: 12 Sep 2011
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Thu 21 Jan, 2016 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Here are two more resemblences to the armour on the Wurzach altarpiece: The effigies of Arnold and Eberhard von Rosenberg. Both are dated around 1445-1450. They are located in the church of Wölchingen - not far from Schöntal where you can find the effigy of Konrad von Weinsberg that was posted above.
Cheers, Timm
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Thu 21 Jan, 2016 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Lewis wrote: | Here is a great drawing by Hans Burgkmair the Elder, circa 1500-03, showing that the classic boxy kastenbrust survived in art to a late date. There are similarities with the armour shown Konrad Witz' altarpiece in Basel... I wonder if it could have been the inspiration?
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Actually the armour style is also very similar to the Gierslev Kirke examples.
It's off course impossible to know if one art-piece's armour inspired another, but it is very important that we now have illustrations of boxed Kastenbrust's even into 1500's in both Germany and Denmark.
Probably Burgkmair possibly wanted to portray something "old" with the image of the knight fighting the giant or you actually still had a few old school people running around with this type of armour?
Great find with the 1419 illustration as well. So the oldest firmly dated illustration of the boxed type.
The globular type - which you found from 1417 - is equal in its appearance in time with the boxed kastenbrust.
Both probably to increase the distance between the plate and the torso, so lots of space to fill in mail and textiles.....
The idea is probably to build up a thick "layered defense" in this area of the body - that can withstand both thrusts and impact damages.
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Mark Lewis
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| Posted: Thu 21 Jan, 2016 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Niels Just Rasmussen wrote: | It's off course impossible to know if one art-piece's armour inspired another, but it is very important that we now have illustrations of boxed Kastenbrust's even into 1500's in both Germany and Denmark.
Probably Burgkmair possibly wanted to portray something "old" with the image of the knight fighting the giant or you actually still had a few old school people running around with this type of armour? |
I'm sure it's the former; the drawing is probably a scene from Sigenot, showing the Germanic hero Dietrich von Bern battling a wild man. Burgkmair might well have drawn on past artwork or effigies as a source for suitably antique German armour... impossible to verify, but interesting to speculate!
Here is another version of the same scene, circa 1470, with Dietrich wearing armour of that period.
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Thu 21 Jan, 2016 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| Timm Radt wrote: | Here are two more resemblences to the armour on the Wurzach altarpiece: The effigies of Arnold and Eberhard von Rosenberg. Both are dated around 1445-1450. They are located in the church of Wölchingen - not far from Schöntal where you can find the effigy of Konrad von Weinsberg that was posted above.
Cheers, Timm |
Thanks for the pictures, Timm. 
I wonder if these two effigies actually shows early gothic plate armour.
The structure of the torso looks very "gothic armour", but it also has a domed bulging - so a transitional form?
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Thu 21 Jan, 2016 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Lewis wrote: | | Niels Just Rasmussen wrote: | It's off course impossible to know if one art-piece's armour inspired another, but it is very important that we now have illustrations of boxed Kastenbrust's even into 1500's in both Germany and Denmark.
Probably Burgkmair possibly wanted to portray something "old" with the image of the knight fighting the giant or you actually still had a few old school people running around with this type of armour? |
I'm sure it's the former; the drawing is probably a scene from Sigenot, showing the Germanic hero Dietrich von Bern battling a wild man. Burgkmair might well have drawn on past artwork or effigies as a source for suitably antique German armour... impossible to verify, but interesting to speculate!
Here is another version of the same scene, circa 1470, with Dietrich wearing armour of that period.
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So here we have the scene with updated armour, that is older than the later image with an antiquated armour. Its quite funny that the wild man grows in size into a giant!
So if Burgkmair just copied this older image would he have kept the armour? But there are probably so many variants of this image floating around and many lost with time he could have found inspiration from.
NB: Dietrich von Bern is in reality the Gothic west-roman emperor Theodoric the Great (454-526, ruler from 475).
Highly confusing until you learn that you have a Bern in Switzerland and a Bern in Italy (now Verona) and the Italian one is the correct one.
In Scandinavia he is later called "Didrik" and the earliest mention is on the Swedish Rök runestone from 800's.
Source: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didrik_af_Bern#/media/File:R%C3%B6kstenen_1.JPG
So you have both west-germanic and north-germanic legendary stories about an east-germanic ruler.
If you want to hear real gothic - some passages from the Gospel of Luke are available here read by Robert Pfeffer and he does it very well [I have studied gothic myself at university]!
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD9WxPVDr_Y
Notice at 1.20 min the extremely cool translation from greek to gothic, that Emperor Augustus ordered a census over all "Midjungard" (Miðgarðr in old Icelandic)!
Basically most of what we know of the language only survives in the "silver bible" of Wulfila's translation, now kept in Uppsala in Sweden.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Argenteus
Gothic was last spoken as a living language in Crimea in the 1700's before it went extinct. It is the only East-Germanic language where we have more than just a few names on inscriptions.
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Mark Lewis
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2016 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Timm Radt wrote: | | Here are two more resemblences to the armour on the Wurzach altarpiece: The effigies of Arnold and Eberhard von Rosenberg. Both are dated around 1445-1450. They are located in the church of Wölchingen - not far from Schöntal where you can find the effigy of Konrad von Weinsberg that was posted above. |
Thank you Timm! It is interesting to see the parallels, with Arnold's effigy in particular.
Are you personally familiar with this area? Do you know if von Weinsberg's statue was a funeral monument? I am just a little confused by the dating in the photo caption to the 1420s if he died in 1446...
| Niels Just Rasmussen wrote: | I wonder if these two effigies actually shows early gothic plate armour.
The structure of the torso looks very "gothic armour", but it also has a domed bulging - so a transitional form? |
You can definitely see the trend towards more rounded outlines, the von Rosenbergs are further along in comparison to the Wurzach altarpiece... at this point, i think the term kastenbrust is more confusing than clarifying.
Also notice how the von Rosenbergs' faulds have shortened compared to the earlier examples... Tobias Capwell found a similar parallel trend in English effigies, where the faulds reach the greatest length around the 1430s (if I remember correctly, reference is not at hand) and then begin to shorten again thereafter.
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2016 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Lewis wrote: | | Timm Radt wrote: | | Here are two more resemblences to the armour on the Wurzach altarpiece: The effigies of Arnold and Eberhard von Rosenberg. Both are dated around 1445-1450. They are located in the church of Wölchingen - not far from Schöntal where you can find the effigy of Konrad von Weinsberg that was posted above. |
Thank you Timm! It is interesting to see the parallels, with Arnold's effigy in particular.
Are you personally familiar with this area? Do you know if von Weinsberg's statue was a funeral monument? I am just a little confused by the dating in the photo caption to the 1420s if he died in 1446...
| Niels Just Rasmussen wrote: | I wonder if these two effigies actually shows early gothic plate armour.
The structure of the torso looks very "gothic armour", but it also has a domed bulging - so a transitional form? |
You can definitely see the trend towards more rounded outlines, the von Rosenbergs are further along in comparison to the Wurzach altarpiece... at this point, i think the term kastenbrust is more confusing than clarifying.
Also notice how the von Rosenbergs' faulds have shortened compared to the earlier examples... Tobias Capwell found a similar parallel trend in English effigies, where the faulds reach the greatest length around the 1430s (if I remember correctly, reference is not at hand) and then begin to shorten again thereafter. |
Could it be that the bronze statue was commissioned in 1424 and finished in 1428 while he was still alive. Preparing for his inevitable death and wanting to choose his effigy personally??
Very interesting that this development of lengthening and shortening at the faulds happens both in Germany and England!
Wonder what the reason could be? Usually its a trade off between protection and mobility.
Perhaps whether you fight predominately on foot OR are mostly on your horse?
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Timm Radt
Location: Germany Joined: 12 Sep 2011
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2016 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Hi together,
yes I know the area of Wölchingen and Schöntal quite well. Historically seen it is the southwestern part of Franconia - today it is part of the Bundesland Baden-Württemberg.
The statue of Konrad von Weinsberg is indeed a funeral sculpture. It was comissioned in Nuremberg for 120 guilder between 1426-28. Around the same time Konrad, who was imperial treasurer, and his wife donated a greater amount of money to Schöntal-Abbey where they wanted their sepulcral momument to be erected but which in the end was never fully completed.
I hope these informations help.
Cheers, Timm
Here is another picture of the effigy of Arnold von Rosenberg.
Attachment: 120.64 KB
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Timm Radt
Location: Germany Joined: 12 Sep 2011
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Fri 22 Jan, 2016 10:14 am Post subject: |
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...and here another effigy from the same area that is fairly not known: The one of Konrad von Aschhausen who died in 1415. I think the effigy was created some years later. It displays that special type of besagues that can be seen on the Wurzach-Altarpiece.
Cheers, Timm
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Mark Lewis
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| Posted: Sat 23 Jan, 2016 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Timm Radt wrote: | | The statue of Konrad von Weinsberg is indeed a funeral sculpture. It was comissioned in Nuremberg for 120 guilder between 1426-28. |
Thank you for this clarification! So it predates the Wurzach altar as an example of the long fauld + fluted breastplate + fan-shaped besagews combination.
| Timm Radt wrote: | | ...and here another effigy from the same area that is fairly not known: The one of Konrad von Aschhausen who died in 1415. I think the effigy was created some years later. It displays that special type of besagues that can be seen on the Wurzach-Altarpiece. |
Another interesting example! It seems to mix new features like the heavy fluting and besagews with older styles like the large mail skirt/apron, and maybe a klappvisier bascinet.
| Niels Just Rasmussen wrote: | Very interesting that this development of lengthening and shortening at the faulds happens both in Germany and England!Wonder what the reason could be? Usually its a trade off between protection and mobility.
Perhaps whether you fight predominately on foot OR are mostly on your horse? |
English men-at-arms primarily fought dismounted, and long faulds were probably a feature found/thought to be advantageous for foot combat. The German-style fauld flares out from the hips much more than English ones - maybe an attempt to get the best of both worlds: a large protective fauld which doesn't impede riding. Italian armour kept to shorter faulds, complemented with flexible tassets... which were eventually adopted into the English style as well.
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Niels Just Rasmussen
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| Posted: Sat 23 Jan, 2016 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Lewis wrote: |
English men-at-arms primarily fought dismounted, and long faulds were probably a feature found/thought to be advantageous for foot combat. The German-style fauld flares out from the hips much more than English ones - maybe an attempt to get the best of both worlds: a large protective fauld which doesn't impede riding. Italian armour kept to shorter faulds, complemented with flexible tassets... which were eventually adopted into the English style as well. |
So it means we have a development for long faulds in periods of predominately foot combat for knights and then both before and after this vogue, shorter faulds seems to show an emphasize on more horse action!
For Tobias Capwell's discussion about english knights (and the French likely as well?) being on foot at Agincourt, that is certainly very interesting.
Also shows that its probably function more than just fashion alone.
So English has the most emphasize on foot at one point. Germans a compromise construction & Italians mostly a being on horse focus.
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