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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 27 May, 2018 6:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Stone's Glossary has about a dozen hide cuirasses from Alaska and Siberia that have glued layers - IIRC they are all two or three layers thick

Found the entry in Stones Glossary. Nine examples, not a dozen.


Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Sun 27 May, 2018 6:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Dan. Not sure why the 404 keeps happening, but here's another image from a different site showing the same kind of armour.

http://www.tara.tcd.ie/xmlui/bitstream/handle...sequence=1

The way I see it, either this style of armour is something unique to Ireland, or it is just a poorly executed carving of a standard armour type such as a coat of plates.

However if it is something unique to Ireland then perhaps it could be a cathchris. All very speculative I know but it's just a thought.

Éirinn go Brách
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 27 May, 2018 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
Thanks Dan. Not sure why the 404 keeps happening, but here's another image from a different site showing the same kind of armour.

http://www.tara.tcd.ie/xmlui/bitstream/handle...sequence=1


Looks 14th century to me and everything looks as if it were metallic, not hide, but it is impossible to know for sure from a carving.

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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Mon 28 May, 2018 2:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As I said it's just a thought, and without some kind of supporting documentary evidence it's impossible to say what material is intended, though it most likely is steel.

Here's another thing I've been pondering. The above translation of the Táin says that Cu Chulainn's cathchris was made from the choicest parts of seven ox hides of yearlings. The word translated to "choicest parts" is formna, which can mean choicest parts, but taken literally means shoulders. So it could just as well be translated as the shoulders of seven ox hides of yearlings.

I wonder if it's possible to determine how big yearling oxen were in medieval Ireland, and from there determine the dimensions of a double shoulder of hide. Knowing this we might be better able to guess at what a cathchris might been like.

Éirinn go Brách
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Mon 28 May, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So according to what I've just read in "The Archaeology of Livestock and Cereal Production in Early Medieval Ireland, AD 400-1100", The average shoulder height of a bull at this time in Ireland was about 4 foot. This seems to roughly correspond with modern day Kerry cattle with Kerry bull's weighing about 1,000 lbs on average.

Does anyone here know how we can use this information to determine the dimensions of a double shoulder piece of hide from a yearling ox?

Éirinn go Brách
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2018 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know if this one has been discussed before, but here's another mention of a leather garment in the Irish sagas:

"A single warrior approacheth, O Cuchulain," cried Laeg to Cuchulain. "What manner of warrior is he?" asked Cuchulain. "A brown, broad-faced, handsome fellow; a splendid, brown, hooded cloak, about him; a fine, bronze pin in his cloak; a leathern three-striped doublet next his skin; two gapped shoes between his two feet and the ground; a white-hazel dog-staff in one of his hands; a single-edged sword with ornaments of walrus-tooth on its hilt in the other. "Good, O gilla," quoth Cuchulain, "these be the tokens of a herald. One of the heralds of Erin is he to bring me message and offer of parley."
From: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/cool/cool09.htm

Leonard
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Thu 29 Nov, 2018 7:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Len. As always we have to be careful with the translation. Here's the original text for that particular garment.

"Tarbléni trebraid fria chness"

which Cecile O'Rahilly translates as

"A strong, plaited shirt next to his skin"

The word tarbléni is a compound of tarb and léine. Léine of course means shirt or tunic. Now tarb literally means bull but is sometimes used to mean strength. So you can see how tarbléni could be either bull shirt or strong shirt. I think that strong shirt is more likely however as trebraid means plaited or woven, which to me suggests a textile rather than leather garment.

Éirinn go Brách
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Thu 29 Nov, 2018 2:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for that translation Stephen. I wonder why they would go out of their way to describe a tunic as being bull/strong? Sounds like it was meant for battle. Another saga mystery.
Leonard
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