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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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 Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Wow, Jessica, I never knew about all of that. That's really useful information. Thanks!
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Kel Rekuta
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| Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Jeff Johnson wrote: | | Kel Rekuta wrote: |
Being someone interested in historical accuracy and effective protection, I would strongly recommend products from Revival Clothing. Several of our people purchased their cotton arming coat for unarmoured bouting with aluminum wasters. Terrific product. I've also seen the linen version which is a bit thinner and more appropriate to wear under armour. If I were in the market for a 14th-15thC arming coat / aketon, I wouldn't look anywhere else.
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I would. A cotton shell is not historically appropriate. |
Sorry Jeff. You are quite correct. Cotton is not historically appropriate fabric for a reproduction garment of this type. I failed to clarify my recommendations. Let me try again.
I recommend, as a student of historical martial arts, the following products from Revival Clothing, for the reasons stated below. I have no affiliation with said company or its owners and manufacturers.
Recommendation #1
The cotton "aketon" (or gambeson as many people misname it) for safer aluminum waster bouting, where Living History level accuracy is superfluous when the attire is matched with a modern fencing mask. In a pinch, it makes a better historical presentation than a protective garment created from a moving blanket, as many are. 
Recommendation #2
The linen "arming coat" version under harness, where knowing an appropriate fabric is hidden below layers of iron and steel will comfort even a devoted Living History interpreter as he poses for tourist photos.  The wicking characteristic of linen reduces heat fatigue as well. However, for unarmoured bouting, the garment has limited defensive properties.
Both are comfortable and relatively inexpensive products. They are economical alternatives to the expense and difficulty of obtaining an accurately patterned and constructed, time specific garment tailored to the individual.
Terribly sorry to have been unclear with my previous recommendation.
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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Kel Rekuta wrote: |
Recommendation #1
The cotton "aketon" (or gambeson as many people misname it) for safer aluminum waster bouting, where Living History level accuracy is superfluous when the attire is matched with a modern fencing mask.
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Actually both "aketon" and "gambeson" are historically used words and form the texts it is not clear whether there was difference between these two words. Both of them have been used to refer to padding worn under or over the mail, or so Claude Blair argues. The modern tendency to try to distinguish between them and attach them to specific clothing items is somewhat misleading. I am not sure if there is any firm basis to call something an aketon as opposed to a gambeson. Just think about whether we call a pair of Levi's pants, jeans, denims, or trousers. Many words of different origin yet equally applicable to the same item.
Alexi
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Jessica Finley
Industry Professional
Location: Topeka, Kansas Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | Wow, Jessica, I never knew about all of that. That's really useful information. Thanks! |
No problem! It's nice to be able to contribute useful information here and there, rather than just reading and absorbing.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Jessica;
Thanks for the very usefull post: Any idea how much "better" a Gambison with a linen shell with cotten stuffing would be compared to the all cotton version in not absorbing excessive moisture or in ease of getting it dry again ?
Any advice about cleaning and general maintenance ? ( Sorry about asking about a cleaning question: I would ask the same question from a "Guy" who had posted the same very interesting information ..... LOL. )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jessica Finley
Industry Professional
Location: Topeka, Kansas Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Jessica;
Thanks for the very usefull post: Any idea how much "better" a Gambison with a linen shell with cotten stuffing would be compared to the all cotton version in not absorbing excessive moisture or in ease of getting it dry again ?
Any advice about cleaning and general maintenance? |
No problem! I really can't say how much "better" it would necessarily be. I haven't run tests like that, though I am working with a gentleman to make up a number of various mock-ups of various materials for cutting and piercing tests, I could certainly run a "stink" test on them too. That might yeild some very interesting information!
Cleaning and maintenance, I would ABSOLUTELY follow whatever directions the maker gives you. For instance, I boil every piece of wool or linen and dry it on high before it leaves my hands. Why? Too many people DIDN'T follow my directions and tried to wash their garments and ended up ruining them. As such, I have taken to "beating up" the fabric before it ever gets made into anything. Kinda like testing the temper on a sword before you do the finishing polish work. *grin* But back to the point, I don't know how other tailors treat their fabric before they send it out, and I'd hate to give you advice that undoes their work. Always clean any garment the way the maker tells you to.
| Quote: | | ( Sorry about asking about a cleaning question: I would ask the same question from a "Guy" who had posted the same very interesting information ..... LOL. ) |
No problem there, it hadn't even occurred to me. It's a logical train of thought.
Jessica
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Kel Rekuta
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| Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Alexi Goranov wrote: | | Kel Rekuta wrote: |
Recommendation #1
The cotton "aketon" (or gambeson as many people misname it) for safer aluminum waster bouting, where Living History level accuracy is superfluous when the attire is matched with a modern fencing mask.
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Actually both "aketon" and "gambeson" are historically used words and form the texts it is not clear whether there was difference between these two words. Both of them have been used to refer to padding worn under or over the mail, or so Claude Blair argues. The modern tendency to try to distinguish between them and attach them to specific clothing items is somewhat misleading. I am not sure if there is any firm basis to call something an aketon as opposed to a gambeson. Just think about whether we call a pair of Levi's pants, jeans, denims, or trousers. Many words of different origin yet equally applicable to the same item.
Alexi |
Alexi,
Which term would you choose to describe the buttoned front, thick cottoned shell garment Revival sells? Certainly Brian Price chose to use the most common term in his promotional material, if not in other articles he's written. I study the 14thC, so tend to use the term I gathered from those studies to describe this particular garment.
I've read some lively discussions about fabric defenses on various historical lists . My studies including Blair suggest the term gambeson was less frequently used in the 14thC. The late 13thC garment you commissioned does not appear to be described in my sources as an aketon but as a gambeson. Then there is the term jupon to consider. I agree there is a lot of confusion with respect to textile defenses, especially in 14thC studies. Apparently, my comments are contributing to the confusion. Sorry. 
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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Kel Rekuta wrote: |
Alexi,
Which term would you choose to describe the buttoned front, thick cottoned shell garment Revival sells? Certainly Brian Price chose to use the most common term in his promotional material, if not in other articles he's written. I study the 14thC, so tend to use the term I gathered from those studies to describe this particular garment.
I've read some lively discussions about fabric defenses on various historical lists . My studies including Blair suggest the term gambeson was less frequently used in the 14thC. The late 13thC garment you commissioned does not appear to be described in my sources as an aketon but as a gambeson. Then there is the term jupon to consider. I agree there is a lot of confusion with respect to textile defenses, especially in 14thC studies. Apparently, my comments are contributing to the confusion. Sorry. |
Hi Kel,
there is nothing to be sorry about. I simply wanted to indicate that there might not be a clear cut between what exactly these words refer to. To add to the confusion there is a third term pourpoint . C. Blair explains as follows in his European armour (1958) book: pourpoint likely referred to all types of quilted defence (a generic term of sorts), aketon was often referred to as the simple (unadorned) quilted defence worn under the armour, and gambeson is the more adorned, sometimes made of silk or other rich material quilted garment which is worn over the armour. However there are plenty of references to gambesons worn under the armour and to adorned aketons, so the distinction is somewhat blurred. C. Blair does propose to keep things simple and refer to the garment under the armour as aketon and the one over as gambeson, but he does recognize that these are somewhat artificial distinctions.
He mentions little about the frequency of usage of the two words during 13th and 14th c, and makes no distinction (early on) about the presence of buttons and the name of the garment.
I am actually also interested in 14c and what I ordered is inspired by 14c illustrations. It is not the same cut as what you see on the picture I referred to. It is shorter (mid-thigh length) and has buttons. I still intend to wear it under mail. So for all practical purposes we may as well call it aketon  even though there is not reason not to call it gambeson. Some books still refer to these as gambesons (Osprey's English Longbowmen)
Cheers,
Alexi
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Adam Lloyd
Location: Chicago, IL Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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In medeival times, isn't cotton exclusively a New World item? I know they have it in Egypt and whatnot but did it make its way to Europe during those times? Linen, hemp, wool is what I've read about. I don't believe cotton is Native to the European continent
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Jessica Finley
Industry Professional
Location: Topeka, Kansas Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | From http://www.apl.com/boomerangbox/d121099.htmScientists know that cotton was grown, spun, and woven into cloth in Pakistan over 5,000 years ago. At the same time, people in Egypt were also making and wearing cotton clothes. Arab traders first brought cotton to Europe about 1,200 years ago. And when Columbus traveled to America in 1492, he found cotton growing in the Bahamas. By the year 1500, cotton was known and traded around the world. |
Yep, there was cotton in Medieval Europe. It wasn't generally woven into fabric, though. It was used as a filler, primarily.
Jess
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