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Mikko Kuusirati
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 Posted: Sun 29 May, 2016 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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A mace is anything but a bloodless or less-lethal weapon. I'm sure batons, bludgeons and cudgels of all kinds (including the hafts of polearms) saw a lot of use in friendly neighbourhood peacekeeping, so to speak, but I really don't think maces can be included in that category.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Mario M.
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| Posted: Sun 29 May, 2016 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Gregg Sobocinski wrote: | | Town drunks and petty thieves would likely be handled with clubs or maces (functionally a club with extras) |
Again with the blunt weaponry...
Firstly, how would one carry a mace or club around without it being blatantly obvious/striking and seen on clothes?
Secondly, bladed weaponry was, by far, the most common option for civilian weaponry, a knife or dagger was the prime commoner/peasant weapon after the spear(ofc) for literally thousands of years.
In fact, the messer as a weapon developed through that particular popularity and the desire for those daggers to become longer.
One handed maces and warhammers were upper class battlefield weapons designed for dealing with armored personnel;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9SvgWJNSd8
| Gregg Sobocinski wrote: |
since cutting off limbs or having townspeople die from blood loss or infection has often been frowned-upon. (Note 19th and early 20th century law enforcement in USA and England). |
That is a very bold claim.
State a single source that proves that point.
I personally go through numerous images of crime victims relatively often and blunt weaponry is far, far from clean and without blood.
Not to mention that blunt weaponry is ineffective in comparison to bladed weaponry and will most probably result in lots of screams and a need for repeated strikes until the victim is subdued, very messy stuff.
While a single proper slash/stab from a blade will likely incapacitate most unarmored persons quickly.
“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Ben Joy
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| Posted: Sun 29 May, 2016 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Mario M. wrote: |
Again with the blunt weaponry...
Firstly, how would one carry a mace or club around without it being blatantly obvious/striking and seen on clothes?
Secondly, bladed weaponry was, by far, the most common option for civilian weaponry, a knife or dagger was the prime commoner/peasant weapon after the spear(ofc) for literally thousands of years.
In fact, the messer as a weapon developed through that particular popularity and the desire for those daggers to become longer.
One handed maces and warhammers were upper class battlefield weapons designed for dealing with armored personnel; |
First and foremost . . . a club can literally be any stick that you beat someone with. A baseball bat can be a club, and a baton or truncheon can be a club. It doesn't have to be a big fancy mace designed for war. Some terms here, in this conversation, are being used on a very casual and generalized basis. While a mace might not be the best term to use, a club is not far from reality here.
On the other hand, it's been pointed out by numerous people in this thread that guards would likely access anything in the town's armory for the purposes of defense of the town. Thusly, the likelihood of them carrying something like a warhammer or mace is not entirely out of the question, here, just as it would be likely that they'd be carrying something like a spear or halberd.
| Mario M. wrote: |
That is a very bold claim.
State a single source that proves that point.
I personally go through numerous images of crime victims relatively often and blunt weaponry is far, far from clean and without blood.
Not to mention that blunt weaponry is ineffective in comparison to bladed weaponry and will most probably result in lots of screams and a need for repeated strikes until the victim is subdued, very messy stuff.
While a single proper slash/stab from a blade will likely incapacitate most unarmored persons quickly. |
I think you're overlooking one major point on the concept here and the reason blunt weapons keep getting mentioned. The guards don't necessarily want to kill everyone they go up against. The likelihood that subduing some drunk peasant with a bladed weapon, by stabbing them in the gut, would result in infection and quite likely their death (through infection or blood loss or organ damage) would prevent the guards from wanting to use such measures. Why do you think most modern police carry a blunt knightstick or billyclub for dealing with civilians? They don't necessarily want to run them through or -in modern day- fill them with bullets unless absolutely necessary.
Using a baton, club, or baculum to subdue an unruly drunk will get the job done without a lot of messy bloodshed. There's a HUGE difference between taking a club and knocking someone civilian silly with a concussion and throwing them in jail for the night versus a bludgeoning assault with a baseball bat because you want to beat someone within an inch of their life or quite possibly kill them. Someone intentionally committing a vicious crime is a lot different than someone knocking someone silly to subdue them. There is always restraint to be had by a guard or officer of the law who is using solid judgment.
Besides, every and any implement can eventually cause someone very serious harm if you use it enough. Just look at boxing . . . they wear big padded gloves that turn a knuckle-dusting brawl into a glorified -yet still potentially brutal and lethal- pillow fight. Yet people have still died in boxing matches. Just because something can be lethal doesn't mean that the inherent use of it in the given context makes it lethal.
"Men take only their needs into consideration, never their abilities." -Napoleon Bonaparte
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Mario M.
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| Posted: Sun 29 May, 2016 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben Joy wrote: | | First and foremost . . . a club can literally be any stick that you beat someone with. A baseball bat can be a club, and a baton or truncheon can be a club. |
Have fun carrying that around in a medieval city without drawing attention to yourself.
| Ben Joy wrote: | | While a mace might not be the best term to use, a club is not far from reality here. |
Not far, but since literally everyone had long knives at their belts then, and I do not exaggerate when I say everybody, having wooden sticks as additional weapons kinda makes no sense...since they already have a very good close quarter weapon.
| Ben Joy wrote: |
On the other hand, it's been pointed out by numerous people in this thread that guards would likely access anything in the town's armory for the purposes of defense of the town. Thusly, the likelihood of them carrying something like a warhammer or mace is not entirely out of the question, here, just as it would be likely that they'd be carrying something like a spear or halberd. |
I accept that, but you were not talking about possibilities, you were talking about probabilities, which I disagreed with.
| Ben Joy wrote: | | The guards don't necessarily want to kill everyone they go up against. |
You sure about that?
Been to liveleak lately?
Saw any US or Brazilian police officers trying not to kill anyone who posed a direct threat?
Now imagine what they were like during the medieval period.
| Ben Joy wrote: | | The likelihood that subduing some drunk peasant with a bladed weapon, by stabbing them in the gut, would result in infection and quite likely their death (through infection or blood loss or organ damage) would prevent the guards from wanting to use such measures. Why do you think most modern police carry a blunt knightstick or billyclub for dealing with civilians? They don't necessarily want to run them through or -in modern day- fill them with bullets unless absolutely necessary. |
Perhaps, find some sources about the usage of non-deadly weapons by city guards during the medieval period then.
Because I don't see no guards carrying batons anywhere.
“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Ben Joy
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| Posted: Sun 29 May, 2016 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Mario M. wrote: |
Have fun carrying that around in a medieval city without drawing attention to yourself.
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That's why most people, in modern era, keep them in their car or whatnot, and not on their person. However, in the case of the discussion, we're talking about the guards, and not random civilians. I fully expect them to draw attention to themselves and put on a show of authority with their very presence.
| Mario M. wrote: |
Not far, but since literally everyone had long knives at their belts then, and I do not exaggerate when I say everybody, having wooden sticks as additional weapons kinda makes no sense...since they already have a very good close quarter weapon.
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It's documented in historical context the exact weapon of a baculum (mentioned earlier), that was apparently a really big stick, about mace-sized, that was often carried by authority figures (so this would includes guards/militia) in peacetime situations. Yes, everyone is running around with long-knives, but a long-knife doesn't have the reach or capabilities to really compete with someone carrying a large bludgeoning object to knock you senseless with (police tactics 101 . . . your baton outreaches any knife, so keep them out of striking range if they pull one). I'd think it's highly probable that a bunch of guards carrying big sticks for non-lethal (or as non-lethal as possible) deterrents would be quite effective.
| Mario M. wrote: |
I accept that, but you were not talking about possibilities, you were talking about probabilities, which I disagreed with.
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First you're arguing part of this like we're talking about civilians, when we're talking about guards/militia (see above). Now you say you agree it's possible, but then you don't think it's probable. That's fine, but we are talking about possibilities of things, especially since we're touching on "guard weapons/equipment" in a very general context. It's been stated numerous times in the thread already that specific kit for a guard really would require specific examples going all the way down to the timeframe, nation, and even as narrow as the city level to get something accurate and highly likely/probable. Then on top of it it's been pointed out that even within a single unit the kit can vary quite a bit, so it's still not a 100% guaranteed equipment list.
| Mario M. wrote: |
You sure about that?
Been to liveleak lately?
Saw any US or Brazilian police officers trying not to kill anyone who posed a direct threat?
Now imagine what they were like during the medieval period.
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1. I live in the US; and the overwhelming majority of the time non-lethal force is used to solid effect. Lethal force is used as a last resort. Just because you only hear about the high-profile killings on the main-steam media sources doesn't mean that is how all situations end (ever hear the saying that "death equals ratings"?). In many situations "direct threats" are quickly dispatched with a stun-gun from one officer while the other officer has their sidearm drawn . . . just in case . . . but again, that's last resort.
2. Suddenly we've gone from handling minor civil situations to talking about every situation being a serious direct threat? There are various levels of force that can be employed. Some drunk-and-disorderly peasant isn't going to get the guards to beat him to death or run him through . . . which is one of the biggest situations that's drawing the attention of blunt weapons for peacekeeping purposes. The guards would obviously have means of dealing with full-fledged bandits, they have access to the town armory, after all. However, they'd also keep means of dealing with basic civil issues . . . and the aforementioned baculum is a prime example of this. It's a big stick that draws attention and symbolically states, "I'm an authority figure, here," and they can still club you with it.
3. Really terrible stereotypes go both ways, so you might want to think about that before throwing them around. It really doesn't help build a case especially when you're going to then turn around and demand someone else provide sources when you're providing stereotypes.
| Mario M. wrote: |
Perhaps, find some sources about the usage of non-deadly weapons by city guards during the medieval period then.
Because I don't see no guards carrying batons anywhere. |
It's already been mentioned in this thread with several sources. The mention of the Baculum is one example that's apparently come up a fair bit in records (and the reference I provide ironically states that the bearer of the Baculum carries a mace into "imminent hostilities" -combat- but carries a Baculum to otherwise assert authority). Then you also have the later implementations of truncheons and batons as time moves on. It doesn't mean that they didn't also carry lethal weapons, or even if they had to carry lethal weapons in regular terms, that they'd suddenly be using the lethal implementations of the weapon for something as simple as a roaming drunk that needs to be tossed in a cell for the night.
Modern police are a prime example of how this culture has continued through the ages. Yes, they carry/possess (a standard UK "Bobby" might not have a gun but their police departments absolutely have men with them for when the needs arise) lethal means with which to subdue people and are trained to use them judiciously. However, for most run-of-the-mill situations they have non-lethal methods to employ and will exhaust all of those options before resorting to anything lethal.
"Men take only their needs into consideration, never their abilities." -Napoleon Bonaparte
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2016 3:22 am Post subject: |
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The "Customs of Toulouse", BNF Latin 9187, is a book dealing with crime and punishment. If you look at how the men executing the punishments are armed, you get some idea of how city "police" were equipped at the end of the 13th century in that part of France: Swords, spears, axes, maces, clubs and bill hooks appear with mail and cervellieres, also bucklers, escutcheons, lanterns, torches, etc.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b1050904...20Toulouse
Folio 34r is typical.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105090434/f73.item
The punishment being executed is the poena cullei or "sack punishment" for killing a parent. The criminal is tied in the white sack with the rooster, dog, snake, and monkey, and thrown into a lake or river.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poena_cullei
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Karl G
Location: Australia Joined: 25 Apr 2016
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2016 4:57 am Post subject: |
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It's documented in historical context the exact weapon of a baculum (mentioned earlier), that was apparently a really big stick, about mace-sized, that was often carried by authority figures (so this would includes guards/militia) in peacetime situations. Yes, everyone is running around with long-knives, but a long-knife doesn't have the reach or capabilities to really compete with someone carrying a large bludgeoning object to knock you senseless with (police tactics 101 . . . your baton outreaches any knife, so keep them out of striking range if they pull one). I'd think it's highly probable that a bunch of guards carrying big sticks for non-lethal (or as non-lethal as possible) deterrents would be quite effective.
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I don't think modern police apply really apply. 'Police tactics 101' for dealing with knives -a lethal weapon, is you draw something with more stopping power. The only time you have a baton against a knife wielder is if you were surprised whilst holding the baton already and its certainly not a good day when that happens. The knife wielder has more than enough lethality' to compete with a baton' particularly as modern batons are comparatively short and have restrictions in their construction regards damage anyway.
| Quote: |
Modern police are a prime example of how this culture has continued through the ages. Yes, they carry/possess (a standard UK "Bobby" might not have a gun but their police departments absolutely have men with them for when the needs arise) lethal means with which to subdue people and are trained to use them judiciously. However, for most run-of-the-mill situations they have non-lethal methods to employ and will exhaust all of those options before resorting to anything lethal. |
And lets clarify modern 1st world police .In much of the 3rd world and the old 2nd world the police could be anything from overworked, corrupt to actual agents of oppression,. Exercising extreme force can work wonders in control. A lack of ethos, procedures, low pay, work overload and they will jump to extreme or lethal force to set examples. its surprising to those who have lived most of their lives in the 1st world but a lot of the world doesn't call the police for help, they avoid them for the above reasons. I wouldn't see this as dissimilar to certain medieval scenarios.
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William P
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2016 5:39 am Post subject: |
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Why dont we perhaps look at an example of a society that does have a ton of well preserved implements and records for how street city criminals were dealt with
Auch as...hmm... medieval and edo period japan?
Different side of the globe but we still have similar threats.. bandits drunks.. especially those drunks who are armed like samurai in the streets..
There we see the common police armed with bo staves primarily and the police constables having jitte truncheons on the home islands... and sai in okinawa..in addition we see man catchers and barbed implements for pushing people around to subdue them...
In the medieval period europe
Why cant a truncheon be added. Or use the butt of a spear to knock aomeone out or pin them against the floor while somwone ties them up
Also the extra reach afforded by a spear haft outranges any knife wielded by a ruffian. Even outranging a sword
And in medieval constantinople we had men with shields and small headed maces...not big flanged ones..just small onion shaped blobs...or sometimes just wooden clubs
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William P
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2016 5:47 am Post subject: |
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Not to mention shakespeare also gives some idea
In romeo and juliet the townsguards 'bring cudgels and partizans' to subdue the brawling montagues and capulets
Outside of the time period by around 100 years and italian. Not english...
However...again... it shows the fommonality of using a cudgel and pole weapons
I suspect the partizan was chosen to use its lugs to pin the offenders limbs or pull them off balance
Or to use the poles to trip them up and bind them while stYing out of sword range
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Nat Lamb
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2016 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: | Not to mention shakespeare also gives some idea
In romeo and juliet the townsguards 'bring cudgels and partizans' to subdue the brawling montagues and capulets
Outside of the time period by around 100 years and italian. Not english...
However...again... it shows the fommonality of using a cudgel and pole weapons
I suspect the partizan was chosen to use its lugs to pin the offenders limbs or pull them off balance
Or to use the poles to trip them up and bind them while stYing out of sword range |
errrrr, I would count anything in Shakespeare as being a source about England. He was not big on overseas fact finding trips
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2016 7:28 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, but most of Shakespeares plays weren't originals, they were popularized, flashed out verisons of tales and stories that have been around for centuries, so if he got the facts wrong, it probalby wasn't his fault becuase he didn't create the story in the first place. Also, yeah, quarterstaffs, butt ends of spears, cudgels are great nonlethel weapons. I think comparing to all steel maces is a bit silly. Hell, in a pinch, you deter someone by spanking with the flat end of a sword, but I don't the flat end would be able to knock anyone unconsuis, just annoy them.
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Kirk K.
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| Posted: Mon 30 May, 2016 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | Kirk,
After years of studying town records I have never seen anything that indicate them using specific weapons because they were in town. The roads might be cramped but they are wider than you may be thinking. the main streets of Southampton, which was a rather small town would have enabled you to use pretty much any weapon you needed. In fact it seems to have been several carts wide. Smaller alleyways might have been harder but I really doubt they chose a new set of weapons for guard duty.
If you look up some of my articles they include specifics of weapons and armour for commoners, townsmen included,but I do not think you will find them any different.
Yes some type of lantern for light but that is pretty much it. Spears, bows and swords seem pretty common in art and possibly text, though the word baculum comes up in town records and we are not sure if it is a club, mace, spear or any stick based or shafted weapon.
I have seen very limited info on bucklers in town, though various shields do show up in personal and town inventories.
Best of luck,
Randall |
Thanks. It does of course make sense that each town would have its own unique defense and law enforcement needs. I guess other than a lantern, the only other universal 'cop gear' one might expect is some kind of cudgel. People have been using them to deal with belligerent drunks since alcohol was invented.
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EDIT:
Just found this a few posts down the thread: | Mikko Kuusirati wrote: | | A mace is anything but a bloodless or less-lethal weapon. I'm sure batons, bludgeons and cudgels of all kinds (including the hafts of polearms) saw a lot of use in friendly neighbourhood peacekeeping, so to speak, but I really don't think maces can be included in that category. |
Yeah, it would be pretty hard to whack somebody in the noggin with a mace and not get a messy, fatal depressed skull fracture.
Last edited by Kirk K. on Tue 31 May, 2016 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kirk K.
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2016 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| Gregg Sobocinski wrote: | | I think it would depend upon what threats the town guard was formed to handle. Town drunks and petty thieves would likely be handled with clubs or maces (functionally a club with extras), since cutting off limbs or having townspeople die from blood loss or infection has often been frowned-upon. (Note 19th and early 20th century law enforcement in USA and England). Maces, decorative morgensterns, and holy water sprinklers have often been used as a symbol of authority as well as being functional weapons. |
If I was carrying a mace I would not want one ringed with sharp flanges. If you had one of those tucked in your belt you might fall on in a brawl with some drunks. Give me a smooth mace if I am on foot. On horseback you have places to put your flanged mace other than your belt.
---------- | Quote: | If an uprising or armed groups of ruffians (gangs) were a possibility, we're now talking about armor and edged weapons. At times, "sword staves" or corseque might have been used, as well as common military weapons.
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1248
Image credit: Waldman's "Hafted Weapons in Medieval and Renaissance Europe......"
As previously mentioned, we can only speak to particular examples and speculate on the rest. |
Yeah, the town guards of London and Glasgow must have had quite different makeups, for example. London did not have to worry about highlanders streaming down from the hills unexpectedly.
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Kirk K.
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2016 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| Ben Joy wrote: | | Some terms here, in this conversation, are being used on a very casual and generalized basis. |
Thanks for making that point.
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Mario M.
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2016 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| Ben Joy wrote: | | It's already been mentioned in this thread with several sources. The mention of the Baculum is one example that's apparently come up a fair bit in records (and the reference I provide ironically states that the bearer of the Baculum carries a mace into "imminent hostilities" -combat- but carries a Baculum to otherwise assert authority). Then you also have the later implementations of truncheons and batons as time moves on. It doesn't mean that they didn't also carry lethal weapons, or even if they had to carry lethal weapons in regular terms, that they'd suddenly be using the lethal implementations of the weapon for something as simple as a roaming drunk that needs to be tossed in a cell for the night. |
You are right, I retreat my argument.
“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Gregg Sobocinski
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| Posted: Sat 04 Jun, 2016 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Sorry for the delayed response. Thanks to those who jumped in with some historical examples of blunt weapons in law enforcement. I'll just add a few thoughts regarding the basis of my original comments.
My claims were not just based on examples I had read (but don't have time to find), but also on basic economics and psychology. I was picturing a town guard, with a town being defined as several hundred people or less. A large city will have different dynamics.
1) Economics: People are always an asset. Sometimes ruling classes don't see peasants as terribly valuable, but they are, especially in the post-plague era. A smaller community won't stand for the law enforcement killing or maiming valuable assets. This is why blunt is preferable to edged weapons. An edged weapon is similar to a loaded gun in that era. You can do a lot of damage without intending to do so.
2) Psychology: In a community of this size, the town guard will know most town residents by sight, and will personally know a great number of townspeople. Research shows that police officers and soldiers have a natural hesitation when it comes to killing people (even strangers), but this can be greatly reduced with good training. Placing a less lethal weapon at their disposal also reduces this hesitation. (I know this concept was brought up by one of our forum members in a topic. Google got me a quicker result. See below) I'm also an optimist, who believes that most people are not brutal by nature.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=536561
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killology
3) When I mentioned the mace, I was picturing a smooth-headed mace, or a simple, forged mace. Not a gothic, flanged mace. Fancier than a basic club, but not too spiky. Examples:
http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/theenglishcutler/mace/mace-maul.htm
Okay, after looking at those again, maybe those are too lethal. I have a nice, oak Billy club/baton used by a Detroit police officer, possibly as recently as the 1970's. It's not medieval, though, and may be biasing my stance on this topic.
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Tom Wolfe
Location: East Anglia, England Joined: 10 Aug 2015
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Mon 06 Jun, 2016 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Adam M.M. wrote: | | Henrik Granlid wrote: | | So 16th or even 17th century style halbardier equipped guard like the Swiss guard in the Vatican? |
I can't believe I forgot about the Swiss Guard, that answers my question of whether they had basis in reality or not. (I feel silly for asking that now  )
But were there guards like that before the 16th century? |
Not precisely what you're looking for, but I would suggest you look at Rembrandt's painting "The Night Watch" for an idea of North-West Europe in the mid 17th century.
Collector of original 16th-17th century European arms and armour. Would like to collect earlier, but budget doesn't allow- yet!
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