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Roberto E.
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 Posted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Phil D. Thanks a lot for the pictures, Those are supremely helpful.
And as for what i'm looking to do is building a High ranking Templar knight outfit as historically accurate as possible.
Maybe buy some cheaper mail to use as rennaissance fairs and what not, but for my actual project i would like to be a historical as possible. I am aware of the costs and the time and research i will have to do with this.
I am very amazed with this community and how helpful it has been.
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Another question,
some of you have mentioned that the coifs during this period were integrated.
But doing some reading and based on some of the pictures that you guys have provided me, it seems that seperate coifs from the hauberks we're not unusual for crusader knights to wear.
Could someone confirm this or tell me why this is wrong?
However the integrated mitons seem to be correct with what you have informed me.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Roberto E. wrote: | | So something i've been asking, that has not been answered yet, is about the chainmail at the feet? Would they ear something under the chain mail like boots or shoes? |
Yes. Simple thin leather turn shoes. See the Roland statue at Verona Cathedral, c.1140-1190. The leading, left leg is covered with a mail chausse. The right leg has only hose and shoe.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Roberto E. wrote: | Another question,
some of you have mentioned that the coifs during this period were integrated.
But doing some reading and based on some of the pictures that you guys have provided me, it seems that seperate coifs from the hauberks we're not unusual for crusader knights to wear.
Could someone confirm this or tell me why this is wrong?
However the integrated mitons seem to be correct with what you have informed me. |
It's difficult to find evidence of separate coifs before the 13th century. The earliest example which is sometimes claimed to represent a separate coif dates to c. 1170. Some interpret the square beneath the face as the bottom of a coif, while others think it's a ventail of some sort.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?year=...cript=4967
Another problem of interpretation arises once surcoats start to be worn over the mail. A separate coif's mantle could be worn beneath the surcoat, giving the impression that it's integral when it's not.
Although Osprey's Hospitaller series is based upon a great deal of research, the illustration provided by Phil is not to be viewed as being as trustworthy as historic source material. As a simple example, the choice of showing the Hospitaller shield as black is purely conjectural. Others have argued with equal validity that it should be red. I wouldn't rely on this modern work to prove separate mail coifs were in use before 1200. If separate coifs were in use at all before 1200, they were likely rare compared to integral coifs based upon the vast majority of medieval art.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Sancar O.
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| Posted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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I don't mean to hijack this topic, but I believe this interesting discussion overlaps with something that I have been curious about for the longest time. I you guys fells it interrupts with the discussion at hand, feel free to ignore me 
There is a historical novel in my language that is considered a classic. The novel is set in the year 1299 A.D. One of the major characters in this novel is a knight of the Hospitaller Order from the island of Cyprus, who is also the bastard son of Duke of Milan; thus given the nickname Notus Gladius, "the bastard sword" (pun intended, I believe). There are only few details about the character's attire and armour, other than he is a fancy guy who considers himself royalty. he even made himself a coat of arms. He likes to dress up, and he had his sword and dagger custom made in Italy as a pair.
So what would this character's historically accurate armour, clothing and weapons be? vWould his sword be a bastard sword as his name suggests, or is it too early for that? Would he wear only mail and a helm, or would guntlets and other plate armour parts would also be in his armour( I know it is too early for full plate armour)?
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: |
Although Osprey's Hospitaller series is based upon a great deal of research, the illustration provided by Phil is not to be viewed as being as trustworthy as historic source material. As a simple example, the choice of showing the Hospitaller shield as black is purely conjectural. Others have argued with equal validity that it should be red. I wouldn't rely on this modern work to prove separate mail coifs were in use before 1200. If separate coifs were in use at all before 1200, they were likely rare compared to integral coifs based upon the vast majority of medieval art. |
I want to second what Mart said here. There can be a temptation to want to rely on modern illustrations because they are more realistic looking and easier to interpret than manuscript illustrations. However, they do get things wrong. For instance, the Brazil nut pommel seen on the sword in the second image would have been very rare by 1230 AD; the overwhelming majority of swords would have had a disk or wheel pommel of some sort. And though the small heater shield in the image could be found by 1230, it's completely inappropriate for your area of interest around the Third Crusade, where most knights would have used flat top kite shields.
Trust the primary evidence, even though it's more challenging to work with.
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | Roberto E. wrote: | Another question,
some of you have mentioned that the coifs during this period were integrated.
But doing some reading and based on some of the pictures that you guys have provided me, it seems that seperate coifs from the hauberks we're not unusual for crusader knights to wear.
Could someone confirm this or tell me why this is wrong?
However the integrated mitons seem to be correct with what you have informed me. |
It's difficult to find evidence of separate coifs before the 13th century. The earliest example which is sometimes claimed to represent a separate coif dates to c. 1170. Some interpret the square beneath the face as the bottom of a coif, while others think it's a ventail of some sort.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?year=...cript=4967
Another problem of interpretation arises once surcoats start to be worn over the mail. A separate coif's mantle could be worn beneath the surcoat, giving the impression that it's integral when it's not.
Although Osprey's Hospitaller series is based upon a great deal of research, the illustration provided by Phil is not to be viewed as being as trustworthy as historic source material. As a simple example, the choice of showing the Hospitaller shield as black is purely conjectural. Others have argued with equal validity that it should be red. I wouldn't rely on this modern work to prove separate mail coifs were in use before 1200. If separate coifs were in use at all before 1200, they were likely rare compared to integral coifs based upon the vast majority of medieval art. |
So i have learned so much from you guys already and im starting to get on the right track.
So For this time period the most historically accurate form of mail would a hauberk with coif and mitons included.
As both of you have confirmed, and as i have looked on the burial statues and the manuscript, it does seem to be the case.
However the manuscripts are not so clear on wethere the rings on the mail were flat or what way they were riveted.
From some research i found that most european armor during this age was 4-1 style (please forgive for technical errors)
and that it was alternated from closed rings to ribbeted rings
And from what i see here http://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q=12%20...il%7Ctyped
It seems that the rings were also flat.
How accurate is this?
Any good books i can find on this?
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | | Mart Shearer wrote: |
Although Osprey's Hospitaller series is based upon a great deal of research, the illustration provided by Phil is not to be viewed as being as trustworthy as historic source material. As a simple example, the choice of showing the Hospitaller shield as black is purely conjectural. Others have argued with equal validity that it should be red. I wouldn't rely on this modern work to prove separate mail coifs were in use before 1200. If separate coifs were in use at all before 1200, they were likely rare compared to integral coifs based upon the vast majority of medieval art. |
I want to second what Mart said here. There can be a temptation to want to rely on modern illustrations because they are more realistic looking and easier to interpret than manuscript illustrations. However, they do get things wrong. For instance, the Brazil nut pommel seen on the sword in the second image would have been very rare by 1230 AD; the overwhelming majority of swords would have had a disk or wheel pommel of some sort. And though the small heater shield in the image could be found by 1230, it's completely inappropriate for your area of interest around the Third Crusade, where most knights would have used flat top kite shields.
Trust the primary evidence, even though it's more challenging to work with. |
So what you just said just caught my attention immensely.
So the Heater shield was not as popular as it seems?
But you did say that it was historically accurate right?
Just that most knights would have gone for the other type of shield?
From the manuscripts, it seems as if kite shields ruled the day, but on the burial stones(again sorry for the technical term errors) alot of them were burried with heater shields
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Sancar O. wrote: | I don't mean to hijack this topic, but I believe this interesting discussion overlaps with something that I have been curious about for the longest time. I you guys fells it interrupts with the discussion at hand, feel free to ignore me
There is a historical novel in my language that is considered a classic. The novel is set in the year 1299 A.D. One of the major characters in this novel is a knight of the Hospitaller Order from the island of Cyprus, who is also the bastard son of Duke of Milan; thus given the nickname Notus Gladius, "the bastard sword" (pun intended, I believe). There are only few details about the character's attire and armour, other than he is a fancy guy who considers himself royalty. he even made himself a coat of arms. He likes to dress up, and he had his sword and dagger custom made in Italy as a pair.
So what would this character's historically accurate armour, clothing and weapons be? vWould his sword be a bastard sword as his name suggests, or is it too early for that? Would he wear only mail and a helm, or would guntlets and other plate armour parts would also be in his armour( I know it is too early for full plate armour)? |
I would assume that he would wear similar things to what the templar would, except with different colors and symbols, not completely sure though
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Roberto E. wrote: |
So what you just said just caught my attention immensely.
So the Heater shield was not as popular as it seems?
But you did say that it was historically accurate right?
Just that most knights would have gone for the other type of shield?
From the manuscripts, it seems as if kite shields ruled the day, but on the burial stones(again sorry for the technical term errors) alot of them were burried with heater shields |
It's not that heater shields were not as popular as they seem. They were immensely popular. However, they were immensely popular in the 13th and 14th centuries. For the late 12th century, they're an anachronism.
Kite shields become common in the 11th century, but at this time, they are the proper "kite" shape, like the ones you see in the Bayeux Tapestry. Sometime around the 1120's or so, one starts to see kite shields that have a flat, rather than rounded, top. There is also a tendency for the metallic boss to disappear. Throughout the 12th century, you continue to see a mix of rounded top kites and flat top kites, although the latter become more and more common after 1150 AD.
The first heater shields seem to be somewhat shorter versions of flat top kite shields, which means they are larger than the "classic" heater shield. They probably appeared in the 1190's, although the majority of knights would have still been using flat top kites. It's probably not until roughly 1220 AD that the first classic sized heater shields appear. Certainly by the 1240's, classic heater shields are well attested, alongside flat top kites which persist in one form or another to perhaps circa 1300 AD, or even a little after. However, by the second half of the 13th century, the heater was the dominant shield, and this continued to be so throughout the 14th century.
The reason you see so many heater shields on effigies is because effigies only become common in the 13th century, which is when heaters were the shield of choice.
Last edited by Craig Peters on Fri 03 Oct, 2014 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Roberto E. wrote: |
However the manuscripts are not so clear on wethere the rings on the mail were flat or what way they were riveted.
From some research i found that most european armor during this age was 4-1 style (please forgive for technical errors)
and that it was alternated from closed rings to ribbeted rings
And from what i see here http://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q=12%20...il%7Ctyped
It seems that the rings were also flat.
How accurate is this?
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Period manuscripts only show stylized representations of mail, which is why looking at photos of antique mail is so important. If you go to the end of the thread about authentic mail pictures (page 11): http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29331&start=250 you can see one way that a modern armourer has reconstructed how to close the rivets. Apparently, most modern manufacturers punch holes in the mail rings that are far larger than necessary for the rivets using the wrong kind of tool, meaning that the rivet does not fit as snugly as possible.
European mail is basically exclusively 4-in-1. Mart Shearer informed me that we only have two examples of 6-in-1 European mail, and the only example from the Middle Ages is a bishop's mantle from the late Middle Ages. So stick to a 4-in-1 weave.
From the Pinterest link you posted, the bottom left set of images, showing the mail from the Tofta Church in Gotland, is probably reasonably close to your time period. So yes, probably flat rings as you said. If I was going to have a custom maker, (which is really the only way to go for reasonably accurate mail), produce mail for me, I would want it to be modeled after the mail in this image.
Erik D Schmid, (not to be confused with Eric S. of myArmoury, who also knows a lot about mail), probably has a few other photos of 12th century mail if you were to contact him. He used to make mail too, and is one of the best, but I'm not sure if he's still doing it these days.
You'll have to ask someone else about books. Everything I know about mail I've learned from myArmoury, looking at images of historical mail, and buying a couple of fragments of antique mail.
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | | Roberto E. wrote: |
However the manuscripts are not so clear on wethere the rings on the mail were flat or what way they were riveted.
From some research i found that most european armor during this age was 4-1 style (please forgive for technical errors)
and that it was alternated from closed rings to ribbeted rings
And from what i see here http://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q=12%20...il%7Ctyped
It seems that the rings were also flat.
How accurate is this?
|
Period manuscripts only show stylized representations of mail, which is why looking at photos of antique mail is so important. If you go to the end of the thread about authentic mail pictures (page 11): http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29331&start=250 you can see one way that a modern armourer has reconstructed how to close the rivets. Apparently, most modern manufacturers punch holes in the mail rings that are far larger than necessary for the rivets using the wrong kind of tool, meaning that the rivet does not fit as snugly as possible.
European mail is basically exclusively 4-in-1. Mart Shearer informed me that we only have two examples of 6-in-1 European mail, and the only example from the Middle Ages is a bishop's mantle from the late Middle Ages. So stick to a 4-in-1 weave.
From the Pinterest link you posted, the bottom left set of images, showing the mail from the Tofta Church in Gotland, is probably reasonably close to your time period. So yes, probably flat rings as you said. If I was going to have a custom maker, (which is really the only way to go for reasonably accurate mail), produce mail for me, I would want it to be modeled after the mail in this image.
Erik D Schmid, (not to be confused with Eric S. of myArmoury, who also knows a lot about mail), probably has a few other photos of 12th century mail if you were to contact him. He used to make mail too, and is one of the best, but I'm not sure if he's still doing it these days.
You'll have to ask someone else about books. Everything I know about mail I've learned from myArmoury, looking at images of historical mail, and buying a couple of fragments of antique mail. |
It's crazy how much information you can get from manuscripts.
Looking closely at them youre very right...
I hardly see any Heater shields in the manuscripts.
This is getting interesting! haha
What would your opinion be for this shield
http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=8015...der+Shield
is it a flat kite? or more of a heater?
As for a the mail, it seems im getting closer and closer to what im looking for,While getting educated on the matter 
Do you know of anyone else that makes custom mail? In case he is indeed out of the market?
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 2:01 am Post subject: |
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Roberto,
Since you're specifically interested in the Templars around 1200, you might want to take a look at the wall paintings from the Templar chapel in Cressac, executed about that time. Clicking the pictures gives you the enlarged version.
http://crusaderimagery.com/france/cressac/
I don't know how much surviving mail can be reliably attributed to the period with which you are concerned. The Tofta coif is carbon dated to c. 1250, so is a bit late. Similarly, there's mail from an armourer's workshop in Gomel, Belarus which was likely burned by the Mongols in the 1240s. Although later than you desire, it does show various ring sizes and profiles in use at the same time and location.
http://www.oocities.org/kaganate/gomiy.html
| Quote: | | The fragments of maille fabric contain from 1 to 200 rings, over 600 rings total. Half the fragments has rings with a circular cross-section (wire diameter 1-1.5 mm), half -- with a flat cross-section (1x2; 1-1.5x3; 1x3 mm). The diameter of the rings is 6, 9, and 14 mm. It is certain that many fragments formed different sheets of maille. The mail-making process looks unfinished: there is one ring left unriveted, and several chains of single rings. |
There is the badly corroded lump of a mail hauberk from Kungslena, Sweeden. The Battle of Lena being in 1208, this might be closest to your time and region, but is in such a bad state of preservation that we can only glean general information from it.
http://www.djurfeldt.com/patrik/kungslena.html
| Quote: | | This rolled-up mail shirt was found somewhere on the slopes of Kungslena Hill. Unfortunately, the exact location is unknown. The roll is c. 34 cm long and 17 cm in diameter. It weighs 15.3 kg. The rings are "nut shaped" and have an outer diameter of 11 mm. Because of the type of rings used and the finding-place, it has been suggested that the shirt might be connected with the Battle of Kungslena in 1208. |
You're likely going to want mail that's demi-riveted -- half of the rows being made from solid, punched rings and half riveted closed. 9 mm outer diameter is about average, but you're alright using rings up to 12-14 mm outer diameter. Punched rings and riveted rings don't have to be an exact match in size or cross section. You can have punched rings with a 1 cm outer diameter and flat section 1 mm thick x 2 mm wide, and riveted rings with a round or oval section 8.5 mm in outer diameter with 1.2 mm thick wire in the same hauberk. Also be aware that most commercial mail is sold by giving its nominal internal diameter (the hole size), while most scholarly descriptions give the external diameter of the ring. What is sold as 8 mm or 9 mm mail usually has an external diameter around 12-14mm, toward the larger end of the normal spectrum.
Rivets at this early date are likely to be made of round wire that's smaller in diameter than the wire used in the ring. The big dome-headed rivets used in Indian mail are not appropriate. The rivet hole should be drifted with a tool like an awl rather than punched with a clean hole that removes metal. You're not going to find anything like this from commercial sources, but will have to turn to individual craftsmen or try your own hand at it. Otherwise, it's an option to choose the best that you can afford and understand that it isn't an ideal replica.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 3:46 am Post subject: |
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The shape of the shield is that of an early-style large heater. They seem to have appeared in the 1190's or so, so it's probably appropriate style-wise.
I would not buy a shield without seeing the strapping on the reverse side and comparing it with shield strapping in the manuscripts.
One problem I see are the nails/nuts on the surface of the shield. Although convenient for modern shield construction, I have seen no evidence that it was done historically. Also, if you really want high historical accuracy, your shield should be assembled from planks of wood, such as linden wood, glued together and covered with linen or parchment.
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Phil D.
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | Roberto,
Rivets at this early date are likely to be made of round wire that's smaller in diameter than the wire used in the ring. The big dome-headed rivets used in Indian mail are not appropriate. The rivet hole should be drifted with a tool like an awl rather than punched with a clean hole that removes metal. You're not going to find anything like this from commercial sources, but will have to turn to individual craftsmen or try your own hand at it. Otherwise, it's an option to choose the best that you can afford and understand that it isn't an ideal replica. |
So it seems that finding a Craftsmen is the only way to go for accurate replicas of this era.
Is it very difficult to learn how to craft mail?
Where could i get the materials if I decided to do this?
Also do you have any information on what type of gambeson would be used under?
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | The shape of the shield is that of an early-style large heater. They seem to have appeared in the 1190's or so, so it's probably appropriate style-wise.
I would not buy a shield without seeing the strapping on the reverse side and comparing it with shield strapping in the manuscripts.
One problem I see are the nails/nuts on the surface of the shield. Although convenient for modern shield construction, I have seen no evidence that it was done historically. Also, if you really want high historical accuracy, your shield should be assembled from planks of wood, such as linden wood, glued together and covered with linen or parchment. |
What would they use in the place of the nuts and nails?
Where could i find such shields?
Or will i have to find a craftsmen like in the case of the mail?
Are the link provided by Phil D. good shields?
Im becoming skeptical of kult of athena for historically accurate haha.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Roberto E. wrote: | So it seems that finding a Craftsmen is the only way to go for accurate replicas of this era.
Is it very difficult to learn how to craft mail?
Where could i get the materials if I decided to do this?
Also do you have any information on what type of gambeson would be used under? |
Not nearly as difficult to learn how to as to do. Many men spend a great deal of time trying to accurately replicate the look of riveted rings. I would suggest learning to weave with rings which are butted closed.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.barker/fa...r/mail.htm
Learn tailoring from research of actual mail garments.
http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/
Most people who do this use black rebar tie wire (baling wire) because it is a mild steel which is easily annealed and worked. You'll need wire, a steel dowel or rod to roll it around, cutters, a heat source (torch or forge) to anneal rings, a small anvil, hammer, drift (like a graver or micro chisel), tool made to close the rivets (often re-made from end cutters), and lots of time.
Although the earliest literary references to aketons and gambesons start showing up in the 1160s or so, we don't have a lot of pictoral depictions of gambesons worn alone or over mail until 1225 onward. I mentioned this in a previous discussion with Craig Peters.
David Nicole published the Massacre of the Holy Innocents panel from the Baptistry in Verona, c. 1200 in an Osprey text on the 3rd Crusade which Glen K brought to my attention. If these are aketons with quilting lines, it would explain why we rarely see them under the mail: They're short. The contrast between the drape in the clothes is also easily contrasted, and the sculptor has gone to the detail of showing the lines in the palm of the mother's outstretched hand.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Verona_San_Giovanni_in_Fonte_-_Taufbecken_Kindermord_in_Bethlehem.jpg
Craig provided images of a leather aketon or gambeson leather facing:
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Roberto E wrote: |
What would they use in the place of the nuts and nails?
Where could i find such shields?
Or will i have to find a craftsmen like in the case of the mail?
Are the link provided by Phil D. good shields?
Im becoming skeptical of kult of athena for historically accurate haha. |
As I mentioned, above, glue holds the shield together. You will be able to find modern makers who can do them well, but you must be discriminating if you want historical accuracy. Try asking Tod: http://www.todsstuff.com.
The great majority of things for sale on Kult of Athena are not particularly historically accurate. Remember, the number one concern of many, if not most, customers at Kult of Athena is: how cheap is it? Generally, the closer you get to historical accuracy, the more expensive an item becomes. For many customers, historical accuracy takes a back seat to cost. They simply will not spend beyond a certain amount for what they want. Consequently, most of the more accurate reproductions are produced by a comparatively small group of craftsmen and women. If you want higher volumes of sale, sell inexpensive stuff of dubious accuracy at a lower price point.
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Roberto E.
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| Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | Roberto E. wrote: | So it seems that finding a Craftsmen is the only way to go for accurate replicas of this era.
Is it very difficult to learn how to craft mail?
Where could i get the materials if I decided to do this?
Also do you have any information on what type of gambeson would be used under? |
Not nearly as difficult to learn how to as to do. Many men spend a great deal of time trying to accurately replicate the look of riveted rings. I would suggest learning to weave with rings which are butted closed.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.barker/fa...r/mail.htm
Learn tailoring from research of actual mail garments.
http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/
Most people who do this use black rebar tie wire (baling wire) because it is a mild steel which is easily annealed and worked. You'll need wire, a steel dowel or rod to roll it around, cutters, a heat source (torch or forge) to anneal rings, a small anvil, hammer, drift (like a graver or micro chisel), tool made to close the rivets (often re-made from end cutters), and lots of time.
Although the earliest literary references to aketons and gambesons start showing up in the 1160s or so, we don't have a lot of pictoral depictions of gambesons worn alone or over mail until 1225 onward. I mentioned this in a previous discussion with Craig Peters.
David Nicole published the Massacre of the Holy Innocents panel from the Baptistry in Verona, c. 1200 in an Osprey text on the 3rd Crusade which Glen K brought to my attention. If these are aketons with quilting lines, it would explain why we rarely see them under the mail: They're short. The contrast between the drape in the clothes is also easily contrasted, and the sculptor has gone to the detail of showing the lines in the palm of the mother's outstretched hand.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Verona_San_Giovanni_in_Fonte_-_Taufbecken_Kindermord_in_Bethlehem.jpg
Craig provided images of a leather aketon or gambeson leather facing:
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as for the alternative,
Do you know of any craftsmen
I could go too.?
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