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Thomas Laible
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 Posted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject: Dürer Bastard Sword |
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Albrecht Duerer depicted a - to my knowledge - unique bastardsword.
The pommel and the cross are uncommon, and besides this painting I've never seen anything like this swordhilt..
Does anybody know a sword, that looks like that?
Thomas
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I'm split. Half the time I look at this guard, I think it's turned back towards the pommel, somewhat akin to a recurve bow if one were to look at it straight-on. The other half, I want to say it is curved like an "S" as is the one on the Svante. Wish the other half of the guard was visible....
The pommel did seem somewhat familiar... looks like the one on the Albion Castellan (based off of a sword found there).
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Gordon Clark
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| Posted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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I think the pommel looks more like this Peter Johnsson sword:
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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It looks kind of like a combination of a couple of the hilt upgrades at www.christianfletcher.com - the fechtbuch and the gothic.
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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I concur with Gordon. That's definately a flat-topped pommel. And indeed very similar to the PJ sword shown.
Thomas, you might want to take a look at page 211 of Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword. There's a type XX sword there ( a sword that PJ and I like to view as the "cousin" of the Svante) that bears a lot of resemblance to the one depicted by Dûrer. The only discreapancy might be the direction in which the cross is bent, but that could be a matter of perspective.
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Gabriel Lebec
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | I'm split. Half the time I look at this guard, I think it's turned back towards the pommel, somewhat akin to a recurve bow if one were to look at it straight-on. The other half, I want to say it is curved like an "S" as is the one on the Svante. Wish the other half of the guard was visible.... |
I think that the lighting and lines (especially regarding the terminations) of the cross clearly indicate something more akin to your "recurve bow" idea than to an s-guard.
Looks neat.  But that Peter Johnsson sword looks neater to me  .
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Gabriel Lebec wrote: |
I think that the lighting and lines (especially regarding the terminations) of the cross clearly indicate something more akin to your "recurve bow" idea than to an s-guard.
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Hm, yes. You could be right about that. Nevertheless, I think both S-curved crosses as well as "recurved bows", were something of a "fashionable thing" on some swords at the time. With due exceptions in mind of course. At least Dürer seemed quite fond of depicting them (not counting his fechtbuch -think that one features mostly straight crosses). The question is: Did he draw and paint what he saw or knew, or was he just taking liberties as an artist?
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Gary Grzybek
Location: Stillwater N.J. Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Gabriel Lebec wrote: | | Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | I'm split. Half the time I look at this guard, I think it's turned back towards the pommel, somewhat akin to a recurve bow if one were to look at it straight-on. The other half, I want to say it is curved like an "S" as is the one on the Svante. Wish the other half of the guard was visible.... |
I think that the lighting and lines (especially regarding the terminations) of the cross clearly indicate something more akin to your "recurve bow" idea than to an s-guard.
Looks neat. But that Peter Johnsson sword looks neater to me . |
I've seen that style before and it may have very well been in one of the Fechtbucher. Anyway, I remember that the guard did not have an "S" curve as far as I can tell but the recurve as seen in the painting. A unique but interesting style I think.
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary Grzybek wrote: |
I've seen that style before and it may have very well been in one of the Fechtbucher. Anyway, I remember that the guard did not have an "S" curve as far as I can tell but the recurve as seen in the painting. A unique but interesting style I think. |
Could you try to find out in which fechtbuch you saw it (if that's the case I mean)?
I'm becoming more and more partial to the "non-S-curve recurve" interpretation the more I look at the picture btw.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Joachim Nilsson wrote: | | I'm becoming more and more partial to the "non-S-curve recurve" interpretation the more I look at the picture btw. |
That's the one I would prefer to think it is... my mind's eye really likes the look. I just hadn't seen one quite like that before, save the quillons on a rapier or two, but that's a totally different monster.
Also, now that the glare is gone off of my flat panel monitor, I have to agree, the pommel does appear to be flat-topped. It's pretty sweet as well.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | Joachim Nilsson wrote: | | I'm becoming more and more partial to the "non-S-curve recurve" interpretation the more I look at the picture btw. |
That's the one I would prefer to think it is... my mind's eye really likes the look. I just hadn't seen one quite like that before, save the quillons on a rapier or two, but that's a totally different monster.
Also, now that the glare is gone off of my flat panel monitor, I have to agree, the pommel does appear to be flat-topped. It's pretty sweet as well. |
Yes, I think so too now. It's a very nice look indeed. And that pommel is very sweet.  The pommel is actually very reminiscent of the pommel of the Svante. Minus the three niches.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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If it's an s-curve, then it's actually fairly similar to Peter Johnson's sketch for the new Albion Earl.
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Martin Wallgren
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| Posted: Mon 28 Feb, 2005 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm... if you look closely at the cross on Peters drawing there is a interesting difference between right and left. The left has a shadow that the right lack. Could this be an indication of an slight S form on the Earls cross...
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Swordsman, Archer and Dad
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 01 Mar, 2005 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| Martin Wallgren wrote: | | Hmm... if you look closely at the cross on Peters drawing there is a interesting difference between right and left. The left has a shadow that the right lack. Could this be an indication of an slight S form on the Earls cross... |
According to Howy, yes:
| Quote: | | Peter says there is just a slight "S" curve to it... |
(From page 4 of http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=3041)
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
Last edited by Chad Arnow on Tue 01 Mar, 2005 6:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Risto Rautiainen
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| Posted: Tue 01 Mar, 2005 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Pavel Moc http://www.swords.cz makes reproductions based on that painting conveniently called "Durer". That model is very popular among the students of our sword school. There's a drawing of it on his web pages, sorry I don't have any photos.
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Tue 01 Mar, 2005 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Risto Rautiainen wrote: | | Pavel Moc http://www.swords.cz makes reproductions based on that painting conveniently called "Durer". That model is very popular among the students of our sword school. There's a drawing of it on his web pages, sorry I don't have any photos. |
Here is a drawing of that Pavel Moc Durer sword -
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Tue 01 Mar, 2005 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Roger Hooper wrote: | | Risto Rautiainen wrote: | | Pavel Moc http://www.swords.cz makes reproductions based on that painting conveniently called "Durer". That model is very popular among the students of our sword school. There's a drawing of it on his web pages, sorry I don't have any photos. |
Here is a drawing of that Pavel Moc Durer sword - |
Yep, that certainly seems to be the correct one.
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Manfred Fritz
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Gary Grzybek
Location: Stillwater N.J. Joined: 25 Aug 2003
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Joachim Nilsson
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| Posted: Tue 01 Mar, 2005 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Were those the ones you were thinking about earlier?
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