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Nostro Titus
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2005 8:08 am    Post subject: Interesting type XVa         Reply with quote

This concerns a sword that is either unique or one of only a few surviving examples. Whatever the case, the prominent narrowing of the blade at the middle seems to indicate a design that favours halfswording and thrusting. Unfortunately I have never seen any other illustrations of this or similar swords that provide any information about it. After a few prototypes I ended up with a blade that is 10mm thick at the base and gently flattens to 8mm at the pinched area and then flattens down to 2mm at the tip. The design seemed to be sturdy enough and there were no indications of a tendency to fail at the narrowed area.
The problem is that I had to try and reproduce a type of sword without any hard data at all, not even any lengths, weight or widths. This means that even though the last guinea pig handled ok, I probably missed the mark by miles. Example: The original might be a 180cm twohander while prototype is a small hand and a half sword of total 125cm.

Has anyone by any remote chance actually seen anything like this sword? Any information would be much appreciated. The book from which I copied this picture mentions nothing at all about this sword. The picture was taken from "Cut and thrust weapons" by Eduard Wagner, published by Spring Books in 1967, on page 163, plate 26.

Nostro



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Eendrag maak mag ("Unity is strength")
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Lee O'Hagan




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2005 8:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Nostro,
I have seen something similer and actually had a picture,
but that was before my machine went sideways a while back,
all i can say is the one i did see was actually a two part takedown blade,
it was also an antique,sorry but that is as much as i can remember,
Also nice to see you on these boards too.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2005 9:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A take down blade? Interesting. Do you recall where the sword came apart, and how it was put back together (pins, screwed together, etc.)?

I wonder if this was a specialized judicial duelling sword?
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2005 9:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These swords were a result of the wild experiments in armouries during the 15th C.
I´ve only seen two and they were displayed in the imperial armoury in wienna.

They were of slim hand and a half dimension.
If you want to make such a sword do not make the pint as needle like as in the drawing.
There is s subtle curve the last six inches or so.
Your thicknesses sound about right, but the point should be 3 or 3.5 mm thick.
Blade length on the swords I saw was about 90-95 cm long.
Pretty average for a hand and a half sword.
Blade width is about 35 mm between the edges at the base.
The ones I saw were not take down construction. Such a sword could have existed, but would have been an even more exteme experiment.
These swords would have been used in duels or some sort of tournaments.

I would guess the weight of these swords is about 1.35 kilos.

I see no reason why not bigger swords of this type could have been made, but I don´t know of any such weapons.

Sorry about the quality of the photo.
The right hand sword has the same sqaure section in the middle.
I have no full length shot.


Hope this helps.



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Lee O'Hagan




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Jan, 2005 6:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Nostro,
apologies for sending you the wrong way,

Peter,
As always great information,
and thankyou for saying what i described could exist,
{you also said to remind you of that picture in a few weeks Wink }

Bill,
Off topic,
The sword picture i had showed something similer to the above but the central piece was shorter,
it looked as if the point end of the blade slid in and locked halfway into the hilted end,
from what i could make out it looked like some form of button/bearing release,
As to it's use you could be corect in the dueling thought as the blade showed knicks and some edge damage which was why i found it interesting,
I actually went back and looked through the back up discs i have, but no joy i'm afraid,
Should i find it again i will pm you the link or put a thread up here,
The only thing bothering me is for some reason Band sword keeps bouncing around my head ?
Also if you find anything like this yourself i would be happy to hear of it.
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Nostro Titus
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 2:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the information, Peter.
Lee, the sword you describe sounds interesting, please let me know if by some miracle you come upon it again.

Nostro

Eendrag maak mag ("Unity is strength")
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Russ Thomas
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Jan, 2005 3:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nostro et al......


A sword like this was sold at Sotheby's ,London, 4 December 2003, lot 62. I am sorry that I am unable to post a picture at the moment.However, part of the caption to the lot reads:

'A rare German sword for the foot tournament,early 16th century'

' The form of combat for which this sword was intended is illustrated in the fechtbuch by Hector Mairs,published in the first half of the fifteenth century in Augsburg.The swords in the Fechtbuch do not have the central shank ( lot 62 does ),which was probably a refinement of the second half of the century. See Dr.F Kottenkamp,1988,p.105 and plate 59. A similar sword is preserved in the Hofjagd - und Rüstkammer ,Vienna, A.168 ( presumably the one that peter has shown ? ), another is in the Heeresgeschichtliche Museum,Vienna. It has been suggested that the sharply tapering form of the blade and the additional forward grip is designed for forcing the point through armour and mail. See H .Seitz 1965, p.172'.

Estimated price: £8.000 - £10.000

The blade length was 38 3/4" ,(98.2 cm).

Perhaps someone has knowledge of which books or articles this caption is refering to ?

Hope that this is of some interest.

Regards as ever,

Russ

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Last edited by Russ Thomas on Fri 14 Jan, 2005 12:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Jan, 2005 6:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Thomas wrote:
Nostro et al......


A sword like this was sold at Sotheby's ,London, 4 December 2003, lot 62. I am sorry that I am unable to post a picture at the moment.However, part of the caption to the lot reads:

'A rare German sword for the foot tournament,early 16th century'

' The form of combat for which this sword was intended is illustrated in the fechtbuch by Hector Mairs,published in the first half of the fifteenth century in Augsburg.The swords in the Fechtbuch do not have the central shank which was probably a refinement of the second half of the century. See Dr.F Kottenkamp,1988,p.105 and plate59. A similar sword is preserved in the Hofjagd - und Rüstkammer ,Vienna, A.168 ( presumably the one that peter has shown ? ), another is in the Heeresgeschichtliche Museum,Vienna. It has been suggested that the sharply tapering form of the blade and the additional forward grip is designed for forcing the point through armour and mail. See H .Seitz 1965, p.172'.

Estimated price: £8.000 - £10.000

The blade length was 38 3/4" ,(98.2 cm).

Perhaps someone has knowledge of which books or articles this caption is refering to ?

Hope that this is of some interest.

Regards as ever,

Russ


"H. Setiz 1965" I think refers to the book Heribert Seitz published in 1965 "Ein Waffenhistorisches Handbuch Blankwaffen"
It is currently available on the web for a bit over $200.

Dr Frans Kottenkamp published at least one book on Chivalry and Armor. This one from 1988 is "THE HISTORY OF CHIVALRY AND ARMOR WITH A DESCRIPTION OF THE FEUDAL SYSTEM, THE PRACTICES OF KNIGHTHOOD AND TRIALS BY SINGLE COMBAT". It is available for ~$35.

Man, the list of books to get never ends, does it? Eek!

Alexi
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2005 5:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the sword mentioned by Russ Thomas. Information from a Sotheby's Auction, 04 Dec 2003:

A RARE GERMAN SWORD FOR THE FOOT TOURNAMENT, EARLY 16TH CENTURY

Measurements note: 98.2cm; 38 3/4in blade

DETAILED DESCRIPTION
with tapering double-edged blade of diamond section, formed with an oblong central shank of rectangular section for additional grip, the lower portion cut with three latten-lined marks on one face, a crested great helm, a bishop's crozier and a cross forché within a circle, iron hilt comprising horizontally recurved quillons expanding towards the tips and formed with a central rib on each face, plummet-shaped pommel (associated), and later cord-bound leather-covered grip

CATALOGUE NOTE
The form of combat for which this sword was intended is illustrated in the 'Fechtbuch' (book of fighting) by Hector Mairs, published in the first half of the 15th Century in Augsburg. The swords in the Fechtbuch do not have the central shank which was probably a refinement of the second half of the century. See Dr. F. Kottenkamp 1988, p.105 and plate 59. A similar sword is preserved in the Hofjagd- und Rüstkammmer, Vienna, A168; another is in the Heeresgeschichtliche Museum Vienna. It has also been suggested that the sharply tapering form of the blade and the additional forward grip is designed for forcing the point through armour and mail. See H.Seitz 1965, p.172.



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Foot Tournament Sword
German, 16th century


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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jan, 2005 6:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder what the change in blade cross section in the middle does to the "feel" of the blade and its dynamic properties?

The grip size suggests that this sword was meant, or at least could be, used as any other hand-and-a-half sword with both hands on the grip.

Does anything in the design need to be "tweaked" to accommodate the narrower, bar-shaped section of the blade?

Alexi
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Russ Thomas
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Jan, 2005 12:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thankyou for posting the picture of the Sotheby's lot Nathan.Unfortunately at the moment I cannot do so myself Sad Thankyou also to Alexei for the details on those two articles.
I must say that out of the two pictured examples I seem to prefer the KHM. example that Peter posted more.I just love that ricasso which the other one does not unfortunately have.For me It makes the whole assembly soooo sexy !
Does anyone have any details on the hilt assembly of the KHM example,it looks to me as if the quillons are,or were, covered with thin leather ?

Many thanks ,

Regards as ever,

Russ

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Nostro Titus
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jan, 2005 4:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the input Russ and Nathan. This really turned into an informative tread.
This will make progress much easier for me.

Nostro

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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jan, 2005 4:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Thomas wrote:
Thankyou for posting the picture of the Sotheby's lot Nathan.Unfortunately at the moment I cannot do so myself Sad Thankyou also to Alexei for the details on those two articles.
I must say that out of the two pictured examples I seem to prefer the KHM. example that Peter posted more.I just love that ricasso which the other one does not unfortunately have.For me It makes the whole assembly soooo sexy !
Does anyone have any details on the hilt assembly of the KHM example,it looks to me as if the quillons are,or were, covered with thin leather ?

Many thanks ,

Regards as ever,

Russ


The whole hilt is covered with lether as a matter of fact. The leather is also colored/painted. You can still make out some of this.

Unusual all together...
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Russ Thomas
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 4:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter,

Quote:
The whole hilt is covered with lether as a matter of fact.


Do you by any chance know if this leather was simply glued in place or was it stitched ? and how common was such leather covering ??

Regards as ever,

Russ

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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Thomas wrote:
Peter,

Quote:
The whole hilt is covered with lether as a matter of fact.


Do you by any chance know if this leather was simply glued in place or was it stitched ? and how common was such leather covering ??

Regards as ever,

Russ


Could not see any seams.
I think it was glued in place.
Never seen a completely leather covered hilt before.
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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Feb, 2005 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the figure and caption form H. Seitz'es book that Russ had a referred to. Maybe the german speaking forumites can offer a translation.

These pictures were taken from "Ein Waffenhistorisches Handbuch Blankwaffen" vol I by Heribert Seitz, page 172.

The lower sword appears to be the same one as on the picture in the first post on this thread.

Alexi



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David R. Glier





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PostPosted: Sun 06 Feb, 2005 1:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You know, every time I run across this thread, I keep geting this mad vision of some film maker stumbling across these pictures and telling his propmaster, "I want one of THOSE in the movie!" Laughing Out Loud


They're undeniably fascinating weapons. Wouldn't it be nice if someone had a repro done? *hint, hint*
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Fabrice Cognot
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PostPosted: Sun 06 Feb, 2005 5:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all

I *think* I have seen another such sword in Cracow. Will check my HD to see if I have any pic of it.

These were indeed made for fighting, on foot, in armour. As you may know, a lot of period sources deal with fighting techniques using the "half-sword" (ie left hand put on the blade) - and Filippo Vadi's "Arte Gladiatoria Dimicandi" specifically mentions, in its two-handed sword in armour section, a blunt portion intentionally left on the blade, for such purposes.

about the last pics that were posted : has anyone more info on these swords with a long ricasso ?

Cheers

Fab
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb, 2005 2:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexi Goranov wrote:
Here is the figure and caption form H. Seitz'es book that Russ had a referred to. Maybe the german speaking forumites can offer a translation.


"Piercing swords. End of the 15th century. The blades are partially quadratical grinded, which is an late gothic influence"

At the sampe page states Seitz, that these swords have been mainly additional weapons for mounted soldiers.

Thomas
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Fabrice Cognot
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all

I can't really believe these were made for mounted soldiers (yet another example of the funny things you can read sometimes )

Couldn't find any pic of the Cracow sword, sorry. It is kept in the Wawel castle, so maybe you'll be able to get more info by contacting themdirectly.

I had the oppportunity to study a sword with a long ricasso, just like the one on top of the picture Alexi posted. Hence my question.

Here's the thing :

You can see that the blade is heavily corroded right at mid length, thus preventing me to see wether it was left blunt or not. The tang has been shortened during restoration. There's a siver disc in the middle of the pommel, on the other side it is missing. Looks like there's a mark, although hardly visible at all, on the ricasso. Overall dimensions : length 1054
mm.

blade 895 mm long, 3,6 wide at ricasso ; ricasso ; 140 mm long, 27/31mm wide (at blade/cross). 6mm thick at forte.

186 mm cross, 5mm thick at ends. Weight is 1100 g, but the sword was heavily corroded in the middle.

So, if anyone has more info on swords of this kind...



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