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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Thu 30 Dec, 2004 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Brian , I didn't mean to imply that none survives just that in a simple ratio of what was built vs.whats survived till today theres far more surviving plate than maille yet we know that maille was incredibly common and for a period(high middle ages) nearly ubiquitious at least for the upper classes but far less maille survives for all the commonality than plate and the examples that do exist at least as far as my limited knowledge has seen is riveted so that would make any evidence of the use of butted maille for combat environs non-existant accept for written records of the period based on this surivival vs. produced ratio. Therefore wouldn't it be great if somehwhere there was an example of surviving butted European pre-17th century combat maille to help with study .
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Brian W. Rainey
Location: McHenry, IL Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Thu 30 Dec, 2004 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by Brian W. Rainey on Fri 31 Dec, 2004 4:00 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 31 Dec, 2004 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Brian, while the fact that maille does not get displayed in museums is agood point let me ask you this. You talked alot about patching maille. Why was the maille needing to be patched? Does maille suffer attrition through use(rings pop when struck which does not happen with plate.) or through the effects of age(rusting the iron the rings are made of) or both. The indo persian maille and plates shirt I still have (c1650-1700) is made from 3/16" ID riveted rings and it drops
a ring or two every time I move it as did the other riveted suit of maille and plates I used to own. There was a fellow who used to live here that apprenticed with us a while ago who had a European maille shirt that was found in the attic of an Irish manor house his grand father bought and the same effect occured with it(i fact I think if I went digging I probably still have a couple of the poped riveted rings around).I have a hard time belieing that i've owned and seen the only examples or riveted maille that this occures with (even in pictures of pieces more often than not they have at least a few dropped rings and some have chunks missing. Are these rings missing due to use attrition or the effects of aging or both). I don't know that i'd call a 4"x4" piece of European maille being used as a pot scrubber surviving,seems a rather dull existance after a lifetime of fighting lol. Second what would be the equivolent experience for plate that would have a healthy piece( the examples i've had this experience with to which i'll add a fourth I forgot about a marvelous indo persian coife made from fine 3/16" OD riveted rings that would drop rings from time time when handled were with the exception of one (one of the suits of maille and plates had definitely seen action as there were multiple holes in the plates and tares in the maille)
garments in fine, healthy condition without large holes or tares) just dropping parts of itself off?
The maille that you've mentioned locked away in collections do you happen to know if a) there are websites or printed material availiable for or on any of them and b) if any of them have anything from before say 1300
The last maille shirt I saw for sale on e-bay was a while ago and was actually bought by some one a member here(unless Don's sold it since) . It was a 17th century Dutch shirt made by one of the trading companies. I see plate on e-bay all the time but very seldom European maille. What searches are you using to find it i'd love to aquire a piece at some point.
When commenting on butted maille in combat can you comment on why in indo persia its so often found? The majority of khula khuds I've ever seen (all 17th century on) have butted maille curtains as do most of the bazu band that have maille covering the back of the hand. There are also the suits I mentioned earlier. I suppose its possible that they just started having lots and lots of cerimonies and parades about 1600 or so but i'm curious if it doesn't have more to do with what i'd mentioned earlier about the lighter construct of weapons from the region. The complete North African suit I once owned was quit plain. Or is it more to do with the "tech level" of the society building the maille ? The Moros have been mentioned in this thread and the brass maille and plate armours they used were butted (and certainly no "fabled unicorn". The Moros contributed in large part to the US army adopting the Colt 45 1911A. During the rebelion prior to WWI story after story was comming back about emptying .38 caliber service revolvers into chargingMoro tribesman and having no effect at all ) and made by a more "tribal" society as the indo persian region had a great deal of.
Sorry for the long list of questions Brian.
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Brian W. Rainey
Location: McHenry, IL Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Fri 31 Dec, 2004 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Brian W. Rainey on Fri 31 Dec, 2004 4:00 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 31 Dec, 2004 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry Brian I seem to have angered you somehow with my curiousity . My first paragraph last post was asking a question regarding riveted maille using examples of riveted maille i've handled most of which are persian.
Indo persian butted maille was brought up by me on twords the begining of this thread becuase of something Patrick Kelly said about butted maille not being historical and this reminded me that i've always been so curious about why it was
common in the indo persian region of the world . This didn't seem an invalid question at the time but it appears to be so.
This in turn led me to think more on it and begin to wonder if it was not based more on technology level as the Moros came to mind and they were a tribal lower tech society and perhaps this was why you found both types of maille used in persia as you had a mixed society of both tribal and somewhat more advanced groups so tribal might make and use butted while others like the moghuls would use riveted. I though perhaps you could shed some light on these questions but it would appear there are stupid questions so I suppose I should bow out of the thread at this point . Sorry to have stressed you out.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Fri 31 Dec, 2004 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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I think you are seriously over estimating the amount of butted mail in the Orient that was actually worn on the battlefield. With a deeper study of the subject I think you'll find the vast majority of Persian and Indian mail meant for battlefield use was, in fact, riveted, just as it was in Europe. Hopefully the database the ARS is attempting to compile will answer these sorts of questions.
Last edited by Dan Howard on Fri 31 Dec, 2004 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brian W. Rainey
Location: McHenry, IL Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Fri 31 Dec, 2004 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by Brian W. Rainey on Fri 31 Dec, 2004 4:00 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 31 Dec, 2004 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Just thinking that it would be better discussed at length on the ARS forum. |
Why is that?
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 01 Jan, 2005 2:20 am Post subject: |
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Patrick;
At the risk of starting something: Did someone pick up their toys in a HUFF and go home?(Edited/Deleted posts?????)
Looks like someone who really only wants to have a discussion if he can impose his conditions on what questions others can ask.
I personnally though that Allans' questions were interesting, and even if not going in THE direction someone else wanted deserved a respectfull answer or at least a more polite attempt at changing the direction back to European maille.
Hopefully I am not out of line here, but the reply to Allan was just plain rude and arrogant.
Now, deleting as opposed to maybe editing the whole series of posts (Some of which had good informationnal content seems a bit extreme to me and also just plain rude!)
Not the normal level of respect and friendly discourse I have experienced here.
Wasn't going to comment before I saw those edited/erased post: If there is an "acceptable" reason for it I am quite ready to forget about the whole thing!
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Erik D. Schmid
Location: St. Cloud, MN Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Sat 01 Jan, 2005 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Not what I imagined doing on New Year's day, but in any event here I find myself... This response is warranted as I don't want this to degenerate any further casting a less than favourable light upon the ARS.
For a while now I have looked over this thread and some others like it. Using the search function I have perused several previous posts on various threads by Mr. Senefelder. Before I delve further into that I will focus my attention on this particular thread. In my response I may cover ground that was previously touched by Mr. Rainey which has been deleted.
| Quote: | | Maille of riveted construct does not survive the ages well so I would think almost any evidence to be found regarding the use of butted maille(pre17th century) would be in written form but it would be great if theres a suriving example somewhere. |
I do not understand your assumption that riveted mail does not survive the ages well. Where did you ever get that idea from? Is it something you have read on one of the various fora out there? If so then you should really do some more research. I have struggled against this myth for years. In spite of my efforts people still refuse to believe it regardless of the evidence presented. There is a tremendous amount of mail that has survived from many different time periods. A little bit of investigative research will show this. Also, I do not understand why you singled out mail of riveted construction as opposed to that of butted. The tone I am getting from you is that you are one of those people trying to prove the existence of butted mail in a battlefield context in Europe. Please correct me if I am wrong. To my knowledge there is not one shred of evidence to support this idea.
| Quote: | | Brian , I didn't mean to imply that none survives just that in a simple ratio of what was built vs.whats survived till today theres far more surviving plate than maille yet we know that maille was incredibly common and for a period(high middle ages) nearly ubiquitious at least for the upper classes but far less maille survives for all the commonality than plate and the examples that do exist at least as far as my limited knowledge has seen is riveted so that would make any evidence of the use of butted maille for combat environs non-existant accept for written records of the period based on this surivival vs. produced ratio. Therefore wouldn't it be great if somehwhere there was an example of surviving butted European pre-17th century combat maille to help with study . |
With regards to the highlighted portion what is your basis for this statement? Reading the entire post again it seems that you are obsessed with butted mail being used in a battlefield context.
| Quote: | | Brian, while the fact that maille does not get displayed in museums is agood point let me ask you this. You talked alot about patching maille. Why was the maille needing to be patched?. |
I do remember the post you are referring to here. In one sentence Brian refered to mail found outside Europe as being of composite construction. One sentence does not in my mind constitute alot. Also, he made no reference to mail needing to be patched like a torn pair of trousers. Rather, it was in reference to disgarded or ruined pieces of European mail being cobined with others to form a complete garment. This was an incredibly common practice. I have seen and handled numerous pieces exibiting this characteristic. One garment could be composed of mail fragments from several different centuries.
| Quote: | | I have a hard time belieing that i've owned and seen the only examples or riveted maille that this occures with (even in pictures of pieces more often than not they have at least a few dropped rings and some have chunks missing. Are these rings missing due to use attrition or the effects of aging or both). |
I do not even know where this statement comes from. Brian never stated that mail did not suffer from the effects of abuse and corrosion.
| Quote: | | ...I forgot about a marvelous indo persian coife made from fine 3/16" OD riveted rings that would drop rings from time time when handled... |
This piece does not sound too marvelous to me if it loses links when handled. Sounds as if it is quite corroded or was poorly manufactured.
| Quote: | | The maille that you've mentioned locked away in collections do you happen to know if a) there are websites or printed material availiable for or on any of them and b) if any of them have anything from before say 1300 |
At the moment we are working on putting together a searchable database for the ARS containing this type of information. We have information on many very obscure works which should be a benefit to many. I have been working on this as it pertains to mail for some time as part of my private research into the subject. It will take some time for this to become available as there is a tremendous amount of information to put together. There will be more information on public collections rather than private as private collections thrive off of anonymity due to, among other things, security reasons.
| Quote: | | The last maille shirt I saw for sale on e-bay was a while ago and was actually bought by some one a member here(unless Don's sold it since) . It was a 17th century Dutch shirt made by one of the trading companies. I see plate on e-bay all the time but very seldom European maille. What searches are you using to find it i'd love to aquire a piece at some point. |
I have my doubts about the authenticity of this shirt due to the fact that I have never heard of its like before. Could it be the genuine deal? Of course, but let us get a few things straigtened out about it. First, it is not correct to refer to it as Dutch regardelss of it being made for them as it gives a false sense of its origins. Most would assume it was made in Europe rather than being of Indian manufacture. The age of this piece is open to debate as well. The brazed joints are very smooth and the corrosion looks to be very minimal. This shirt could have easily been made a decade ago. Was there a paper trail with it that proved its authenticity? A metallographical report would do wonders. It is hard to imagine someone going through all the work of brazing the joints of the links shut when the process of making mail garments with alternating rows of riveted and whole links was widely used in India and the surrounding regions for centuries. My gut tells me that this shirt may have been made specifically for the tourist trade much like the keyring mail shirts.
As for mail coming up on Ebay, authentic pieces do pop up from time to time. You just have to keep your eye out for them. However, most of the European pieces that are out there looking for a home do not find one through Ebay. Your best bet is to contact a person who has worked in the museum or is in the antiquities market and put on retainer. That way when a piece emerges you can be notified right away.
| Quote: | | When commenting on butted maille in combat can you comment on why in indo persia its so often found? The majority of khula khuds I've ever seen (all 17th century on) have butted maille curtains as do most of the bazu band that have maille covering the back of the hand. There are also the suits I mentioned earlier. |
What is your obsession with Oriental mail? It seems that you are taking the long way around the barn to try and prove your point. Just come out and say that since they used it in such quantities here then by default they must have used it in Europe as well. Mail that was to be used in a combat environment by the people making it made it from riveted links or a combination of riveted and solid links of either punched or welded construction. The mail that was used in Africa was of butted construction. The riveted pieces that seem to have come from there are nothing more than discarded pieces of european mail that were no longer used in Europe. Rather than throwing them away as they were so valuable, they were sold to countries in Africa and also countries such as Afghanistan and surrounding areas. These pieces are quite easy to identify when handled by someone who knows what to look for. As a general rule African pieces will have riveted sections connected with butted links whereas the others will have European riveted pieces connected with riveted links of obviously non-European origin. I would tend to agree with you on the idea of societies having a lower tech society could be one of the reasons for the mail being of substandard construction.
Your perceived obsession with Oriental mail seems to have struck a nerve with Brian because of where your questions seemed to be headed. I hope you are not entertaining a little animosty towards him because he brought up the fact that some of the pieces you purchased were not what you thought they were. A little bit of good research will go along way to preventing you from purchasing items that are not what they are lauded as. I have people contact me quite often with inquiries about whether or not a piece is authentic. Once in a while the perosn does not like the answer no matter how much evidence I produce and then they do their best to tell me that I am wrong. I have had this happen on more than one occasion.
Looking over some of your other posts on this subject leads me to the conclusion that you have received a good deal of your knowledge of arms and armour from the internet. Either that or it has come from very outdated books. This is based off of comments such as these:
| Quote: | ...It was not unsual to wear several maille shirts and padded garments during the 14th century...
...Maille was still made from iron wire even after steel became widely available for two principle reasons ,first iron was cheaper and second you didn't have to anneal iron wire to soften it for the flatten the ends/punch the holes part of the manufacturing proccess... |
Where is your documentation for these statements? I apologize if this post has come across as attacking in its tone, but I felt I should respond to some of the things brought up in it.
http://www.erikds.com
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 01 Jan, 2005 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Patrick;
At the risk of starting something: Did someone pick up their toys in a HUFF and go home?(Edited/Deleted posts?????)
Looks like someone who really only wants to have a discussion if he can impose his conditions on what questions others can ask.
I personnally though that Allans' questions were interesting, and even if not going in THE direction someone else wanted deserved a respectfull answer or at least a more polite attempt at changing the direction back to European maille.
Hopefully I am not out of line here, but the reply to Allan was just plain rude and arrogant.
Now, deleting as opposed to maybe editing the whole series of posts (Some of which had good informationnal content seems a bit extreme to me and also just plain rude!)
Not the normal level of respect and friendly discourse I have experienced here.
Wasn't going to comment before I saw those edited/erased post: If there is an "acceptable" reason for it I am quite ready to forget about the whole thing! |
I have rsponded to you via PM Jean, as this discussion isn't proper or condusive to keeping this thread on track.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sat 01 Jan, 2005 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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I've deactivated both Erik and Brian's accounts because they've both been excessively confrontational, unprofessional, and just plain old rude. They've both been asked and told to change their tone and level of professionalism repeatedly and things didn't improve. In Brian's case, he got mad that he was warned and ended up deleting his posts in this topic and running off in a huff.
If you can't play nice around here, you can't play. Don't get me wrong, I don't subscribe to the whole "warm and friendly" thing and have a hard time with this stuff myself, often coming off as crass and far too succinct. I invite people to disagree, debate, and ask for concrete facts. This is the only way we can grow, learn, and evolve. I, however, expect this to be done with respect for each other. The last thing I want are people chasing off others from this community and making them afraid to ask questions.
It's too bad. Both those guys have a lot of good info in their heads. They're welcome to come back and participate here if they contact me and are able to act appropriately. I ain't holding my breath on this one.
Get this topic back on-topic and feel welcome to continue to talk about maille here. I don't want to hear about any of this mess in this topic any more. If you feel compelled to discuss it, start a topic in the off-topic forum, be professional about it, and discuss the issue not the people.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Alex Oster
Location: Washington and Yokohama Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Sat 01 Jan, 2005 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Here you go guys and gals:
so I saw the concept of double mail being two coats over each other, and I thought, "well that sounds uncomfortable." Then I read the thought that it may instead be a two-intwo link construction. (i.e. doubled rings in construction.) and from a neutral standpoint (I am not an armourer), I would have to say that looking too much in to the statment can sometimes bring us to a different destination. I get the feeling that the two-in-one (or two in two?) sounds most probable (less binding and such?). But this brings me to a new thought that I hadn't really focused on before:
Maile was worn over an arming jacket, but what was worn over the maile? I belive I had read somewhere that maile by itself wasn't strong, but needed the arming jacket and a outer cover to help catch and stop impacts much like modern kevlar... (sidenote: I am not attacking chainmaile, just curious  )
Can some one clairfy this?
I am hastily attempting to bring this back on subject and bridge a new light.
 And I blame Patrick for getting me all hyped up to buy chainmail instead of school clothes! 
good thing school books taped me out this month! 
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
My collection: Various Blades & Conan related
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 01 Jan, 2005 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Alex Oster wrote: | | Then I read the thought that it may instead be a two-intwo link construction. (i.e. doubled rings in construction.) and from a neutral standpoint (I am not an armourer), I would have to say that looking too much in to the statment can sometimes bring us to a different destination. I get the feeling that the two-in-one (or two in two?) sounds most probable (less binding and such?). But this brings me to a new thought that I hadn't really focused on before. |
That construction has been pretty soundly discredited in a previous thread but I can't recall on which board it occurred. Possibly SFI.
| Quote: | | Maile was worn over an arming jacket, but what was worn over the maile? I belive I had read somewhere that maile by itself wasn't strong, but needed the arming jacket and a outer cover to help catch and stop impacts much like modern kevlar... (sidenote: I am not attacking chainmaile, just curious ) |
Padded jacks were often worn over haubergeons in the 15th century. A test conducted by the Royal Armouries concluded that the combination was proof against Mary Rose longbows. Even without this, mail provided an excellent defense against most weapons.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 01 Jan, 2005 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And I blame Patrick for getting me all hyped up to buy chainmail instead of school clothes |
So wear the maille to class.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Robert W. Betten
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| Posted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005 6:14 am Post subject: |
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I've been wanting maille myself and have found most of this thread interesting...the thing is are there many custom makers of historical maille online? as in riveted...as it seems alot sell as there made and dont make to fit? Some of you might know someone who does this I'm hoping. I've tried making my own maille and while I can do it I just dont have the time with work. So if anyone can give me a recommendation I may drop a sword buy I was considering to get myself a nordic style Hauberk (but I want high tensile stainless, it can be chemically darkened and doesnt rust as easy).
Sorry for the Hijack but I didnt want to waste board space and found it weird that there appears to be more custom plate armour and scale mail smiths out there compared to the few historical maille makers.
Thanks guys. 
*!*
"If the people we love are taken from us,
the way they live on is to never stop loving
them. Buildings burn, people die, but real
love is forever." - Sarah 'The Crow'
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Well, without Erik in the discussion I don't know what to say. . .
It's like having Peter Johnsson being taken out of a conversation about swords.  . .
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't see anything in Erik's last post to justify such a reaction. He was laying down the facts as he knows them, which are generally more accurate than anyone else's regarding this topic. He even apologized to anyone who might have misconstrued his comments as offensive.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005 6:15 pm Post subject: Mail |
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I will try to illuminate some of the areas I am familiar with in the context of the mail discussion.
Mail, as so many other areas ( plate, sword, rapiers and such), cannot be discussed in depth in the general sense. It is a complex subject with many different changes occurring over time and by region. To begin to describe European Mail of the 12th and 13th C, as an example, can allow you to begin to make some defining descriptions. Such as average ring sizes on full shirts or rivet and overlap shapes. This is a relatively understudied area in the world of Arms and Armor and most of what has been written prior to the last ten to fifteen years is problematic when compared to the surviving examples and the metallurgical tests that have been done. The comparison across the breath of surviving examples is also difficult as we are just now beginning to define the characteristics of what certain periods of mail manufacture exhibited and much of what has been identified previously has been found to be less than perfect in the provenances given to items. Thus using descriptions applied to pieces in the late 1800's or early 1900's of objects that are used to base a conclusion on can lead one down paths that are not very fruitful in the study of these objects.
One of the great examples of this would be ffoulkes?s chapters on mail. Where the illustrative techniques of medieval miniaturist where used to describe a varied group of mail type armors that there was no physical or descriptive evidence for. The use of written records in the study of arms and armor is essential, but sadly has been little studied. The need to comb civic and judicial records for references to mail, armor or weapons has contributed interesting anecdotes on the subjects but the mass of records and lack of qualified researchers means that the fraction of information studied is probably far less than 1%. References to mail armor, beyond inventory sites, are so few that I am unable to think of one off the top of my head at the moment. I am sure there must be some but they are escaping me at the moment. I am pretty certain none describe any type of particular mail construction techniques.
The use of butted mail in the European context has been discussed many times over the years. Both in the academic world, the reenactment community and on the internet. All of the examples that I am aware of that have portions of suits where butted mail is used seem to be repair situations or alterations and many of these post date the items working period. As so many other types of items Victorian dealers where quite happy to stitch two or three or more chunks together to create something to sell to gentleman collectors of the time. The reuse of mail in period was also very prominent as Erik has pointed out and in most cases the lower end of the mail market would almost certainly have been a previous used resale market.
Now there are parade type pieces where the butted rings seem to have been used but the time frame on the ones that I am aware of are quite late.
As to the comparison of eastern and western mail I have found this topic over the years to be less than helpful as the difficulties of period, construction, region and quality are doubled when two items from different cultures are compared and of little value in adding to the knowledge base of what we are discussing when so little is documented on the items themselves to begin with. To be constructive in this type of discussion more needs to be known of both regions mail production and history.
The use of riveted mail in the European context is so prevalent as to be exclusionary of the butted type. This is almost certain due to the weight and size of ring favored by the European mail maker. The wire is often a slightly flattened 16 to 20 gauge wire and full shirts are in the approx. range of 16 to 24 pds. The need for heaver wire to hold a butted shirt together seems to be the opposite design direction from the European examples.
Hopefully this helps the discussion and let me know if I need to clarify anything I have stated.
Best
Craig
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This is a standard topic