Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Maille arrives from Wholesalearmor.com Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next 
Author Message
Alex K





Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 51

PostPosted: Thu 23 Dec, 2004 6:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What's the difference between square/round section rings? (which provides more strength) What about rivets? What kinds of rivets are there, and again, which provides the most strength?

cheers
alex
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Thu 23 Dec, 2004 6:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Patrick Kelly wrote:
Okay now I think I have a problem.

I've been soaking the shirt in vinegar for a couple of hours. Some rings are a very dark charcoal color while other don't seem to be affected at all. Quite frankly the thing looks like shit at this point. I knew I should have left well enough alone.


Ungh. Sorry to hear that. I don't know why that would happen, but what might help to fix it is the sand in a barrel cleaning method. It may polish the rings enough that they become fairly even looking again.


Now that it's starting to dry it's evening out. But it's also that dingy grey color of galvanized metal. I think it'll be okay once I've tumbled in the sand for awhile. I wouldn't do it again though.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Thu 23 Dec, 2004 8:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeez, this was a blown evening.

Now that I've scrubbed it in the sandbox and oiled it, it's finish is now pretty close to the color of the Historic Enterprises maille. The only irritating thing is that there is now a faint line around the shirt's waist where the rings are lighter in color. It almost looks like a seam, or maybe where the maille was folded as it was zinc plated or something. It wasn't the complete disaster that I had feared it was going to be but I can't say that I'm absolutely thrilled either. I'm glad it was cheap.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni


myArmoury Alumni

Location: San Francisco, CA
Joined: 24 Jan 2004
Reading list: 72 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,191

PostPosted: Thu 23 Dec, 2004 8:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Folkert van Wijk wrote:
Hi Patrick.

you sed:
Quote:
The second point of the rivets was less a concern for me. They can be round or wedge shaped depending on your period of interest. Since I was looking for a maille shirt that would fit into several time periods I didn't find the round rivets objectionable.

What time period are whe talking about then??


Are you asking what period this maille would fall into?

Round rivets were found on maille from the roman period up through the viking age. The maille's 9mm inner diameter also puts it at the max limit for viking age maille.


If memory serves me right, round rivets were the standard until sometime in 14c when wedged rivets started being used in Germany. That agrees fully with what you are saying, but extends it a but further for those of us that are interested in 11-14c outfits.
Here is a little quote from Erik from this thread
Erik D. Schmid wrote:
Now then the evidence seems to indicate that mail was manufactured in this style up until the 13th/14th century. This includes mail produced by the Norse as well. The one thing that did vary through this time period was the size of the links. This included the actual diameter of the link as well as the thickness of the wire. Now, we start to see a change in the way the links are shaped. It seems that somewhere around Germany mail starts to be made with links that have been substantially flattened. They are also closed with a wedge/triangular shaped rivet. The solid links are still the same except they too are now much more broad. I would also like to note that Italy still continued to produce mail made with round sectioned links having cylindrical or square rivets well into the 14th century. In spite of the changes to the shape of the links, they were still made from wrought iron. I have a good deal of experience in making links from wrought iron and I have found that they are much stronger than those made from either mild steel or pure iron.


I was hoping that the inner diameter of this shirt is 8mm (5/16") like the Historical enterprises and Forth-armoury ones. Even at 8mm it is on the limits of being of historically acceptable dimensions. But I should not complain too much. 8mm is better than 10mm which used to be the only size generally available for a long time.

Alexi
View user's profile Send private message
Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Thu 23 Dec, 2004 8:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I was hoping that the inner diameter of this shirt is 8mm (5/16") like the Historical enterprises and Forth-armoury ones. Even at 8mm it is on the limits of being of historically acceptable dimensions. But I should not complain too much. 8mm is better than 10mm which used to be the only size generally available for a long time.


The rings in this shirt are exactly the same size as the rings in the Historic Enterprises sample that I have. I haven't done an exact metric conversion but they are both 5/16 of in inch in internal diameter.

Edit: 5/16 is 8mm. Apparently all of that schooling I had on the metric system as a child was wasted. Big Grin

Check your e-mail Alexi.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,636

PostPosted: Sat 25 Dec, 2004 1:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd be surprised if they weren't the same size. They are likely to have come from the same workshop in India. All the retailers are basically selling the same type of mail. You get what you pay for. For the price it isn't a bad product but it should be acknowledged that it has little in common with mail worn by contemporaries. It is meant as an affordable but superior alternative to butted mail and fills that role nicely.
View user's profile Send private message
Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Sat 25 Dec, 2004 2:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
For the price it isn't a bad product but it should be acknowledged that it has little in common with mail worn by contemporaries. It is meant as an affordable but superior alternative to butted mail and fills that role nicely.


I agree, but I believe I stated as much in my original post.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Scott Gelpi





Joined: 26 Dec 2004

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun 26 Dec, 2004 6:46 pm    Post subject: Cleaning off Galvy         Reply with quote

What you need to do is get yourself some Muratic acid. They have it at Home Depot etc. in the pool cleaning section.

Get a couple of 5 gallon buckets while you are there. Pour acid in bucket then dip the chain in. Tie a rope to the chain so you can get it out. Wear chemical gloves as you don't want that stuff on your hands. This is a volitile reaction and will foam up something fierce at 1st. When the fizzing stops, it's done.
*WARNING: DO NOT BREATH IN THE SMOKE FROM THIS REACTION! DO THIS OUTSIDE!

In a second bucket mix water and baking soda. You can get this at the grocery in the baking section. Mix this solution and dip the chain into it after removing it from the acid. This will nullify the acid. after this, hang and oil.

It's a little more of a hassle but works well.

Scott/Camric
http://community.webshots.com/user/grnshield
(my crap)
View user's profile Send private message
Douglas G.





Joined: 30 Mar 2004

Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sun 26 Dec, 2004 8:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On a little different tilt here, but also regarding affordable armor I bought a pair
of ring mail bracers from Mercenary's Tailor to give my nephew for Christmas.
Having not opened the box before he did, I was very impressed with the quality of
the pieces, and was doubly pleased to be able to give a 22 year old something
that really wound his watch, a thing I hadn't been able to do since his "He Man"
action figure days. So watch out, in Portland there is tatooed ring mail bracer
wearing two sword having fan of Scandinavian Heavy metal! (All clicks and buzzes to me)

Happy Boxing Day,
Doug G.
View user's profile Send private message
Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Mon 27 Dec, 2004 4:16 pm    Post subject: Muriatic acid treatment.         Reply with quote

First, mucho thanks to Scott Gelpi for giving me the idea in my previous thread concerning the maille shirt I recently purchased from Wholesalearmor.com.

I had less than satisfactory results on giving my bright and shiny zinc-plated maille the vinegar treatment. Apparently the Indians manufacture the Maille in panels that are then put together as needed into various garments. It seems that the zinc plating on the rings used to connect the panels had a different alloy content, because they weren't as affected by the vinegar. This left a distinctly brighter line of rings right across the waist (an area where I need no emphasis), around the shoulders, and vertically down each side of the shirt. Not a huge FUBAR but very irritating to my anal retentive nature.

Scott suggested that I use Muriatic acid to remove the zinc plating. Since the shirt wasn't that expensive I decided to give it a try. Immediately after work I drug my wife around town on a shopping expedition. When I told her what I was going to do I received the typical rolling of the eyes response that all of us married sword lovers know so well.

The results were great! Instead of oxidizing the zinc it appears to have removed it all together, leaving the entire shirt a nice even dark iron color. I'm now extremely happy with the result.

I did learn a few things though.

Muriatic acid is nasty stuff. Make sure that you stand "up" wind.

Muriatic acid is nasty stuff. I was expecting a slow bubbling reaction. What I got was a woosh of a cloud with all of the charm of mustard gas. Again, stand "up" wind.

Muriatic acid is nasty stuff. Don't overfill the bucket because it will spill over onto the metal doors of your storm shelter (which are now very clean BTW). Make sure that you do it right before dark, so your wife can't see what you did to the aforementioned storm shelter doors. Eek!

Muriatic acid is nasty stuff. In spite of it's inherent nastiness your dumbass dog will attempt to drink it. Secure Poochie dumbass in the garage first.

Thanks again to Scott Gelpi for the suggestion.

Did I mention the Muriatic acid is nasty stuff?

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus


Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Tue 28 Dec, 2004 6:22 am; edited 3 times in total
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Benjamin McCracken





Joined: 26 Feb 2004

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Mon 27 Dec, 2004 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Muratic acid treatment.         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
the typical rolling of the eyes response that all of us married sword lovers know so well.


Got it today when I talked about getting some stuff from revival .com.

I'm glad to hear that the maile came out so good. Could you post a picture? I'm considering getting some maile from this seller myself.

Ben
View user's profile Send private message
Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional



Location: Upstate NY
Joined: 18 Oct 2003

Posts: 1,563

PostPosted: Mon 27 Dec, 2004 4:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick , we'll be taking all this under advisement as Doug's going to be etching his first nickle pattern weld blade for New Year's with ....you guessed it muratic acid (Doug has 2x Poochie Dumbass . better be extra carefull).
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Northern VA,USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,194

PostPosted: Mon 27 Dec, 2004 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Muratic acid treatment.         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
I drug my wife...


Say WHAT?! Isn't that illegal? Or is that how you two have managed to get along so well? Wink

Seriously, though, I'm glad that worked. The weird coloring on the shirt looked really weird, especially the "belt" coloring.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gordon Clark




Location: Purcellville, VA
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Mon 27 Dec, 2004 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pictures please! Do you have "before" , "middle" (post vinegar) and "after" shots? That would be interesting.

Glad it worked out.

In slight defense of the vinegar method - I think it might have worked if you had left it overnight. The references I looked at (after your series of posts) gave times ranging from 12 hours to 24. All the same - the acid version certainly works faster and produced the right results.

Hmm - you could start a business - Pool cleaning and Zinc removal.
Maybe not.

Gordon
View user's profile Send private message
Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Mon 27 Dec, 2004 6:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Doug has 2x Poochie Dumbass . better be extra carefull


Only if he likes them. Laughing Out Loud

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Mon 27 Dec, 2004 6:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't post pics directly here. Anyone who wants pics can shoot me an e-mail and I'll send you some photos.

Bill,

Should I have been more grammatically correct and said "dragged"? Big Grin

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,310

PostPosted: Mon 27 Dec, 2004 7:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick;

Glad you finally got the results you wanted and are not drugging your wife....LOL.
Always scary when thing get weird when doing these "improvements".

Glad to know that you didn't loose half of your lung tissue by actually standing "downwind": Wouldn't standing downwind mean that the fumes would be coming towards you!?(You would want to be UPWIND to be safe.)

I guess I prefer the less authentic look of zinc plating to the authentic rust management of naked iron.

The one I got from Valentine Armouries probably comes from the same Indian makers, although mine has round wire rings and round rivets.

I am more curious or concerned about how these compare to more expensive mail as to strenght, quality control, protective effectiveness.

I assume that one of the reasons for maille to be more expensive is that when historical accuraty is the priority there are fewer or no manufacturing shortcuts.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 5,739

PostPosted: Mon 27 Dec, 2004 7:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Glad to know that you didn't loose half of your lung tissue by actually standing "downwind": Wouldn't standing downwind mean that the fumes would be coming towards you!?(You would want to be UPWIND to be safe.)


Maybe I inhaled more of those fumes than I thought. Edited for content. Big Grin

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Gabriel Stevens




Location: St. Louis
Joined: 02 Oct 2003

Posts: 145

PostPosted: Mon 27 Dec, 2004 10:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick, I've been using muriatic acid on galvanized steel for about six months now on some art projects a couple of things you should know if you don't already...muriatic acid will rust steel in hours (which is what I've been using it for primarily) so keep your guard up, with water the effect is enhanced. Second, and maybe not such a big concern since this might be a one time thing, the gas and vapour that apparently burns off of the steel, I've been told, is cyanide.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
James Aldrich




Location: Green Bay WI
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 112

PostPosted: Mon 27 Dec, 2004 11:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I use a muriatic acid-based product designed to clean concrete. Sounds like it is essentially a dilute solution of the nasty stuff you fellows are talking about. I use it mainly to take the plating off the various hardware with which I display my collection on the walls.

Immersing parts in the stuff produces a very gentle bubbling action and full de-plating takes several hours. I buy the stuff at Fleet Farm, the local "if we ain't got it you don't need it" emporium.

JSA
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Maille arrives from Wholesalearmor.com
Page 2 of 4 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum