[Jonathon Janusz]

This may be silly, but a question that wandered back into my head tonight:

There is significant and documentable evidence (including surviving examples) of mail made of both iron and steel, predominantly iron. My question is whether or not similar evidence exists in regards to mail made from bronze or brass? More specifically, I know these "latten" metals were used as decoration and ornamentation, but is there evidence of these materials being used as the primary material in the harness? If so, in what time periods was is found? Are there any surviving examples? A thought in my head being that certain bronzes could arguably be considered as strong as iron and although heavier would have benefits (corrosion resistance for one) iron would not.

The closest thing I can remember off the top of my head (if memory serves) is a sample of Roman scale that was made with a mail backing of bronze, the scales themselves measuring less than a half inch square.

Any thoughts on later periods? The "golden years" of mail armour (pun intended)? Perhaps late period as patches covering joints stitched to a quilted arming jack? As part of parade or ceremonial pieces? I understand that the perfection of manufacture of these alloys was mostly lost to the Dark Ages, but still. . .?

Maybe another step further, what of latten plate?

[Allan Senefelder]

Jonathan, I don't know about Europe but the Moro tribesman of the Phillipines wore maille and plate coats entirely of brass both plates and maille. Helmets when worn were also of brass and of caquettel or burgeonette form (spanish influence from the 16th and 17th centuries) . They were using it right up until the American occupation at the end of the
Spanish-American war .

[Alex K]

what about brass plated steel mail, how would it have affected the strength of mail, would it have protected it from the elements?

[Dan Howard]

Wrought iron is the best material for mail. Steel, even mild steel, has a higher tendancy for the links to shatter or crack upon impact. Wrought iron links are more likely to deform and twist rather than break apart.

[Jonathon Janusz]

Allan,

Thanks for the info - I haven't looked into late period Spanish armours much; I'll have to read up a bit.

Alexander,

From what I know, tinning is a documentable method by which metals were protected from the elements (the most ready example in mind is the application of such in Roman artifacts). I haven't heard of using brass in this way. . .

Dan,

I guess my question isn't as much what is the best material possible, but rather if there is any basis of fact in the use of latten metals as the primary type in a harness at all.

In particular, I am curious about Europe, but other resources are always welcome as Allan's input may help guide me indirectly to my answer.

Thanks again!

[Dan Howard]

Daniel Petersen owns some Persian mail that is tin-plated bronze.

[Alex K]

how would a plated (bronze/brass/copper/etc)mail piece affect it's strength? (If at all) How would it compare to a galvanized mail shirt?

Dan, wasn't steel much more widely used? If this is true, wouldn't soldiers naturally choose iron if it were stronger?
By the way, can wrought iron be plated without reducing it's strength?

(A lot of questions! I don't have much experience with arms and armour )

[Jonathon Janusz]

Dan,

Interesting! What is the weave? Would one conjecture that this was common practice in Persia, the tinning used as ornamentation, or else perhaps a man of moderate means wished to look the part of his betters?

[Allan Senefelder]

Alexander as I understand it iron continued to be used for maille after steel became readily avaliable for i'm sure the reasons Dan mentioned and iron was much cheaper than steel (the same reason much munitions plate armour was made from iron ) .

[Dan Howard]

The Persians used 4-in-1 weave just like everyone else - except the Japanese.

[Dan Howard]

As with everything this is only a generalisation, but only the best quality wrought iron was used for mail. Poor quality stuff has too many contaminants and cannot be drawn into wire. This material would be significantly more expensive than the crap used for making munitions plate and is likely to cost at least as much as typical steel plate.

[Allan Senefelder]

So Dan are you saying that while plate was made in two grades(actually more ,munitions refered to everything from the quickest and dirtiest almainrivets up to some of the outstanding examples in Graz for officers.They were made contract and issued off the rack) maille continued to be made to the very highest standards . I'm just curious why this would be so as it seems it would have hastened the demise of maille as the cost would have stayed high via not having different levels of materials to offer depending on the requirments of the contractors equiping needs (being able to offer the lowest quote) . Or was maille being made like plate from various levels of quality materials depending on the contract(i'm refering to late use of maille when it was rapidly becoming a secondary defense)?

[Dan Howard]

You can't make cheap mail. The cost of raw materials is a much smaller proportion of the total cost than for plate armour because it is so labour intensive. Good quality wrought iron saves so much time compared to crap stuff that it isn't worth the armourer's while to use crap. If you have a batch of crappy wrought iron, you send it to the mill to get pounded inrto plate, not to the wire drawers. There are many reasons why plate superceded mail and the so-called "arms race" between weapons and armour is unlikely to have been the main one. I have summarized the main points here.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41041