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Daniel W. Holayter
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 Posted: Thu 16 Dec, 2004 4:24 pm Post subject: Swordmanship |
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Greetings,
I have enjoyed lurking around this sight for quite some time. Thank you Nathan and the rest of you who participate and maintain this most educational site. I live in Eagle River, Alaska and have made enquiries, unsuccessfully, into finding a practice partner or group where I could learn at least the basics of western medieval martial arts, especially swordsmanship. Lacking a partner, what manual or book do some of you think is best for self-teaching? I know that nothing can supplant the importance of a partner, but can the basics be learned without one from a manual?
Daniel Holayter
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 16 Dec, 2004 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Daniel,
Well, the first question to answer is this: What kind of WMA?
Do you have any martial art or fencing experience at all? If you do not, I don't really suggest tackling period manuscripts right away unless if you just happen to want to do it. But it is much easier if you have a background in something to draw parallels with (and at the same time, to contrast with, which also helps you to visualize a technique).
Buf if you are interested in longsword, than luckily for you, there are a couple great books that will get you in the right direction.
Christian Tobler's Fighting with the German Longsword is a fantastic how-to book, and is a companion to Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship, which is his translation and interpretation of the original manuscripts of Sigmund Ringeck and Johannes Liechtanauer. Both books present a clear and easy to understand methodology of learning longsword in this tradition.
Another excellent book is Guy Windsor's Swordsman's Companion, which is to Italian longsword what Christian's book is to German longsword. It is also an incredibly excellent book, and if both had been available several years ago it would have made my life so much easier. 
If you are interested in rapier, I suggest Bill Wilson's Arte of Defense, which is a nice primer on Italian styled fencing. All of the above books can be found at www.chivalrybookshelf.com
Also for rapier, check out the DVDs at www.martinez-destreza.com . There is a DVD for both Italian and Spanish styled rapier. I particularly liked the Italian one.
Hope this helps!
*edited to add: There's also Medieval Sword and Shield by Stephen Hand and Paul Wagner, detailing their interpretation of sword and buckler based off of the oldest known fencing treatise called MS I.33 (the museum script number, it has no name). This title also brought to you by the fine folks at Chivalry Bookshelf.
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Jack McGregor Lynn
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| Posted: Thu 16 Dec, 2004 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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I'd really suggest John Clements' texts on the WMAs. I think that they are probably the best modern texts you can get on swordmanship. They tackle issues with a focus on practicality and function and they make everything easy to understand. The pictures are good for illustrating techniques which I myself have found hard to describe. After choosing which book you want and practicing for a period of time you should get texts but have a handle on the basics before you use texts. Many of the historical sources assume a certain level of competence or understanding and I found that reading them without that is difficult.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 16 Dec, 2004 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Jack McGregor Lynn wrote: | | I'd really suggest John Clements' texts on the WMAs. I think that they are probably the best modern texts you can get on swordmanship. They tackle issues with a focus on practicality and function and they make everything easy to understand. The pictures are good for illustrating techniques which I myself have found hard to describe. After choosing which book you want and practicing for a period of time you should get texts but have a handle on the basics before you use texts. Many of the historical sources assume a certain level of competence or understanding and I found that reading them without that is difficult. |
JC's books are full of inaccuracies and contradictions. He often contradicts the sources that he sites. They were a good rescource when they were introduced, but most recent works are far better. Any of the books the Bill has mentioned would be much better for the serious study of swordsmanship. (I have them all including JC's books)
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 16 Dec, 2004 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Patrick. The books by John Clements were good for their time, but that was a few years ago, and since then the research into WMA has really developed. Because of that, those particular books say a lot of things that I'm sure even the author would now disagree with.
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Sam Barris
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 9:30 am Post subject: |
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I can't really add anything to what others have offered, but you might also want to get a good translation of The Book of Five Rings, by Miyamoto Musashi. Yes, I know that he was Japanese, and that his advice on kenjutsu will be of little technical value to a student of the broadsword or rapier, but his book contains a great deal of martial philosophy to help cultivate the mind and spirit of a swordsman. I've found most translations of Western fighting texts to be somewhat lacking in that area.
Also, there is a translation of Cappo Ferro that came out not long ago. I think it was published under the title, Italian Rapier Combat. Does anyone have any opinions on it?
Pax,
Sam Barris
"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Sean Flynt
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Sam Barris wrote: | | I've found most translations of Western fighting texts to be somewhat lacking in that area. |
That's a good point. Most translations of Western texts are somewhat lacking in that area. However, I think that's going to change as WMA becomes more prevalent. As I understand it, Bob Charron's work has shown that Master Fiore had a lot of philosophy to be understood.
At a class with Christian Tobler recently, he talked about the Paulus Kal manuscript he has been doing work with. In it there is an interesting picture of a man with "eyes like a falcon", a "heart of a lion", and "feet like a hind". These symbolic traits are further described and tell of the mindset that a warrior takes to be a competent martial artist, much in the way many Asian martial arts focus on animal traits. As more material becomes readily available, I think you'll start seeing more of these types of things.
Though one manual that does get compared to Musashi is George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense. He describes some very sound martial advice in there, and it is a little more about tactics than specific technique. Actually, it seems to be more about how much he hates Italians. Once you get past his absolute hatred of the [Italian] rapier, he's got some good stuff in there.
I have the Capo Ferro book, traslated by Jared Kirby. It's good, but I don't know if I recommend going to it right away without something else to compliment it. Without a teacher, it will be difficult at best, particularly this translation. The Kirby translation keeps a lot of the Italian words to stay truer to the original meaning, a effort I applaud in theory. Unfortunately it makes it hard to read, as he had to conjugate the words in Italian and fit it into the English language. So you're reading, and you come to the term "cavare". You flip to the glossary and see, "Okay, that means to move your tip around the opposing sword." So you read on, and the next page you see the word "cavera". You don't know what it means, so you look it up to find it's the third person future idicative of "cavare". On the next page you find the word "cavasse", which you have to look up to find it's the imperfect subject of "cavare", etc.
It's worth owning if you want to study rapier, but I recommend needing one of the following with it (in order) 1) A teacher (easier said than done, I realize), 2) The Martinez DVD (same people who did the Capo Ferro book), 3) Bill Wilson's book Arte of Defense at Chivalry Bookshelf. Once you get some sort of basic founding in how to do the art, interpreting the period sources becomes so much easier.
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R. Laine
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: |
Though one manual that does get compared to Musashi is George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense. He describes some very sound martial advice in there, and it is a little more about tactics than specific technique. Actually, it seems to be more about how much he hates Italians. Once you get past his absolute hatred of the [Italian] rapier, he's got some good stuff in there. |
Meh. Could it be that he just happened to have this odd preference for systems that actually worked?
Weak attempts at humour aside, though, I'd like to second that recommendation. Also, Silver's later text, Brief Instructions Upon My Paradoxes of Defence (both of the texts can be found here in PDF format) deals with the very basics as well. Although the text does not really contain "pure" (sorry, but I've really been having problems clearly expressing myself lately...) martial philosophy aside from the prologue in which he speaks against using violence where words could solve conflicts and the rising popularity of the duel, it does discuss things like timing, distance, judgement and body mechanics, all of which are absolutely essential to any martial art.
Rabbe
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Jack McGregor Lynn
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: |
JC's books are full of inaccuracies and contradictions. He often contradicts the sources that he sites. They were a good rescource when they were introduced, but most recent works are far better. Any of the books the Bill has mentioned would be much better for the serious study of swordsmanship. (I have them all including JC's books) |
I don't mean to scrap with someone who knows a lot more than me but I wound like to say that I haven't yet found a book that covers shield techniques as well as Clements does. Also, from the side of simple personal preference, I like the way Clements uses shadow figures. I think that they make things quite clear and they show articulation better than photographs. I'm not saying that his work is perfect, but I think that when it comes to putting down the basics he does a really good job.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Jack McGregor Lynn wrote: | | Patrick Kelly wrote: |
JC's books are full of inaccuracies and contradictions. He often contradicts the sources that he sites. They were a good rescource when they were introduced, but most recent works are far better. Any of the books the Bill has mentioned would be much better for the serious study of swordsmanship. (I have them all including JC's books) |
I don't mean to scrap with someone who knows a lot more than me but I wound like to say that I haven't yet found a book that covers shield techniques as well as Clements does. Also, from the side of simple personal preference, I like the way Clements uses shadow figures. I think that they make things quite clear and they show articulation better than photographs. I'm not saying that his work is perfect, but I think that when it comes to putting down the basics he does a really good job. |
I do think that JC's book on Medieval Swordsmanship is much better than Renaissance Swordsmanship. There seems to be much less contradictory information presented in it. I also like his use of shadow figures for illustration purposes. IMHO the book will still serve as a very basic primer for somone who is completely unfamiliar with the subject. Paul Wagner and Stephen Hand's book on the subject is far superior in respect to sword and shield techniques: http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAction=VI...ProdID=112
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Benjamin McCracken
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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I would like to add just a bit about JC 's book on Medieval Swordsmanship. I think that the big difference between his book and some of the others that Patrick has mentioned is that it is not a training manual. I think JC does a good job of laying out the basic history and theory of medieval swordsmanship. I just got my copy of "Fighting with the German Longsword". I' have only glanced through it so far, but I will say that it appears to be the best book that I have looked at to date. Again, the big difference is that it is a manual while JC's book is really just a reference.
Ben
____________________
Merry Christmas
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Gary Grzybek
Location: Stillwater N.J. Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | I agree with Patrick. The books by John Clements were good for their time, but that was a few years ago, and since then the research into WMA has really developed. Because of that, those particular books say a lot of things that I'm sure even the author would now disagree with. |
One thing to remember is that JC was one of the first to offer any worth while information on the subject. He himself has admitted that much of the information is dated and we now know much more than previously. Honestly, I think we do not give John enough credit for his continuous efforts. His books continue to offer new students a good starting point I beleive.
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary Grzybek wrote: | | Bill Grandy wrote: | | I agree with Patrick. The books by John Clements were good for their time, but that was a few years ago, and since then the research into WMA has really developed. Because of that, those particular books say a lot of things that I'm sure even the author would now disagree with. |
One thing to remember is that JC was one of the first to offer any worth while information on the subject. He himself has admitted that much of the information is dated and we now know much more than previously. Honestly, I think we do not give John enough credit for his continuous efforts. His books continue to offer new students a good starting point I beleive. |
Another thing to remember is that this isn't a thread criticizing John Clements, or his past or continuing efforts in the Western Martial Arts field. The original poster asked for guidance in the selection of proper manuals for solo training. In that respect John's books are no longer the foremost material in the field. That's not a criticism. That's a simple fact. A new practitioner can get just as much and more from the recent works of Christian Tobler and Guy Windsor.
One more thing to remember is that this discussion of the merits of JC's work started with this statement.
| Quote: | | I'd really suggest John Clements' texts on the WMAs. I think that they are probably the best modern texts you can get on swordmanship. |
That I disaggree with that statement isn't an indication that I have a personal issue with the poster or with JC. It simply indicates that I disagree with the comment. We should be very careful when stating that anything is "the best" of it's kind. These matters are usually far too subjective to define within that narrow context.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary Grzybek wrote: |
One thing to remember is that JC was one of the first to offer any worth while information on the subject. He himself has admitted that much of the information is dated and we now know much more than previously. Honestly, I think we do not give John enough credit for his continuous efforts. His books continue to offer new students a good starting point I beleive. |
Believe me when I say I'm not criticizing John Clements. As I said, I think the books were good for their time, but since then there's been a lot of research that contradicts previous research: It happens in every field, not just WMA. As an example, Christian Tobler publicly admits that he has since changed his interpretations on things that were in his first book.
I own both books, and I think they really helped me as a practitioner a few years ago. At the same time, they gave me a lot of false ideas that have since been misproven since then, and that's not the fault of John. John's only fault in this case is that he was one of the first to come out with the material rather than one of the last, and that's certainly something to be proud of. As you said, even John admits that some of the information is dated, and such is the life of a researcher.
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Jack McGregor Lynn
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that Clements' work is old and that we have learned alot since then, but I think that most of the basic concepts outlined in his books still apply. On another note; does anyone know of a book that tackles shield use comprehensively (apart from Clements')? I think I should really start using my bastard sword with a shield, if only to understand the full range of its techniques.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Jack McGregor Lynn wrote: | | I agree that Clements' work is old and that we have learned alot since then, but I think that most of the basic concepts outlined in his books still apply. On another note; does anyone know of a book that tackles shield use comprehensively (apart from Clements')? I think I should really start using my bastard sword with a shield, if only to understand the full range of its techniques. |
Unfortunately, no, but there's a good reason: We don't know how medieval sword and shield was used. For some reason there are no publicly known period manuscripts that have been found that teach it. The closest things are 1) sword and buckler, to which there're many treatises that discuss this, and 2) non-specific references. Stephen Hand wrote a very interesting article in SPADA on shield work that is based on iconographic evidence, Renaissance round shields, and the interesting duelling shields depicted in German manuscripts such as Talhoffer. It shows a style that isn't the way you would expect to see sword and shield being used (with the shield primarily held with the outside edge to the opponent). Is it historical? Who knows. (though there definately is some supporting evidence)
With the book Medieval Swordsmanship, the same thing applies. Is it historical? Who knows. It's based on experimentation and universal sword principals. I've done quite a bit of sword and shield fighting in the same basic style, with success, but at the same time the success may simply be the fact that no one now adays has a good idea of how it works. Medieval soldiers may have laughed at this style, or maybe they would have praised it. I've also more recently tried Stephen Hand's interesting method based on the non-specific sources, and had huge success against people who fight in the former style. But that might have more to do with the fact that they aren't familiar with Hand's style. Don't know myself, and I don't really practice sword and shield enough to formulate a strong opinion on it yet.
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Daniel W. Holayter
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| Posted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:59 pm Post subject: WMA and Swordsmanship |
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Whoa Folks I am overwhelmed by your estute responses. Thank you so very much. Ideally I would like to find some sparring partners up here in the great white North to work with. I have no experience in any martial arts except for a bit of street fighting in my younger years. I might begin some Karate this spring just to get the mindset and return my body into some semblance of fitness. Thanks for the list of books and manuscripts and keep it comming.
Daniel Holayter
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R. Laine
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| Posted: Sat 18 Dec, 2004 12:27 am Post subject: |
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While I'm sure that karate would help as well, I'd also like to recommend something like wrestling. Chances are what you will learn there will be considerably more applicable to the study of historical European fighting systems, and it should do wonders to one's physical condition and strength too.
Of course, if karate is what you want to do, then go ahead, but it propably won't give as good a base for HEMA research as wrestling will. IMHO.
Rabbe
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 18 Dec, 2004 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Unfortunately, no, but there's a good reason: We don't know how medieval sword and shield was used. |
And this is really a shame too. The sword and shield combination was used throughout the swords long history for far longer than single longsword, rapier, whatever. When you factor in the differences between fighting with sword and buckler, sword and full-sized shield, and not to mention shield use on horseback, you have a pretty wide ranging field of study. A person could probably devote themselves to this particular specialty alone and have a lifetimes worth of study ahead of them.
Not to digress, but that's one of my pet peeves concerning Hollywood. My wife came home last night and presented me with my extended DVD of Return of the King. There are quite a few shields present in that movie. Unfortunately most of them spend their time flapping around on the side of a horse.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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