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Emil Freding




Location: Spain
Joined: 08 Aug 2013

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat 14 Sep, 2013 8:00 am    Post subject: Need help identifying a throwing knife I found in Spain...         Reply with quote

Hello!

First post here, I hope I'm not in the wrong section or so...
I have some experience from ARMA/Hema blade wielding, paired with friends researching W.W.1&2 artifacts, and a personal interest in bush-crafting and survivalism, So I've seen a few blades and are interesting in anything sharp or pointy...

This dagger I found on a street-market in south-east Spain, however, left me clueless.

It immediately caught my attention among the abundance of crap cutlery, wall-hangers and toy-knives normally found there.

It is really authentic with it's solid brass grip, ring knob and blade that balances just where the blade ends.

The egg is actually quite sharp, but appears to have been untouched for a long period. the pictures would have you believe that the corrosive groves are deep, but in fact they are only a few spots you can actually feel, the rest could be polished away.

The grip has a "K" indent on both sides, made kinda sloppy, but distinct.

Could it be a battalion- or personal- identification mark, or?
The blade is elegant and symmetrical enough to tell me it's not a one-off, but the handle seems a bit off, probably shaped by hard duty. It first made me think it might be military issue.

I have been suggested that it might be a "puntilla", a knife especially purposed to kill off the bull in bull-fights. Even though the era and geographical area seems more than feasible, I lean more towards another suggestion I got that it might be a throwing knife, civilian or for a circus, with the ring knob used for attaching tassels, also explaining better the overly rigid construction..

Total length: 240mm
Blade length: 135mm
Blade width: 37mm
Grip length: 75mm
Weight: aprox. 240g


http://i.imgur.com/C1cwMam.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/yFJTmbk.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ABZ0GEj.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/86oScxr.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zAGkSEU.jpg

Any help is greatly appreciated!

If it's worth doing, it's worth doing good.
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
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Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Sat 14 Sep, 2013 8:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've never seen anything like it. If I had to guess, I'd say its home/hand-made. Neat little piece, though! Nice find!........McM
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Sun 15 Sep, 2013 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i would also second home made. for one thing, the chunk of brass in the grip = pretty expensive. so i don't think it would be military issue. i think anything military issue that would be brass would be some kind of formal dress ware, bass is too important to waste during conflicts as you need more shell casing than fancy knives.

but i could be wrong about it, i don't know too much about military hardware. it looks like a personal attempt at a bush craft knife. not too bad as the brass grip is resistant to most corrosion and may never need to be replaced in the bush.
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Russ Ellis
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Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

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PostPosted: Mon 16 Sep, 2013 6:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think I too would go with hand made one off of some sort rather than manufactured, and I too think that this looks like a throwing knife. Would you mind if I snag your pictures and haul them to another forum where there are a lot of international members who may have knowledge of such a thing?
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Emil Freding




Location: Spain
Joined: 08 Aug 2013

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon 16 Sep, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the response so far =)

Well, I grew up in a machine-shop fabricating in metal, and I might be ignorant about blade-making, but I believe that unless someone has a serious skill, machine-shop and/or forgery, this is not hand-made. Again. the blade is excellently balanced and symmetric with a perfect bevel. The photograph simply does not make the blade finish justice. The brass is probably mostly for weight and balance. Maybe for share durability. The brass/shell hypothesis is valid as long as the knife do not pre-date cased charges, or at least the mass-use of them in war-fare (Cartridge ammunition was invented in 1808 and not in wide use until mid 1850's) It also doesn't seem to have a steep enough tip-angle to be the choice of a combat-knife, since most dagger techniques are stabbing rather than slashing. The fact that this is a double-egged dagger immediately excludes it from any bush-craft practice, nor would it be without finger-guard (try to de-bark a decent branch with a double-egg...ouch!). On another note, this is southern Spain, semi-desert climate means there is virtually no bush to craft in for a few hundred kilometers. The cutting craft tool here is basically a sickle for cutting sparto grass (very strong fiber), and river cane. The more I look around at various daggers, the more this appears to be for throwing. It has all the characteristics as far as I can see. The ring knob seems to be the most characterizing feature on this specific piece...

Example of reference pictures of similar type throwing knives: http://www.throwzini.com/joe-d_mcevoy_edgemark_olsens.jpg

As a reference, here's some modern Puntilla knives a suggested by the signature not2sharp on bladeforums: http://www.cuchilleriaalbacete.com/imagenes/c...a-1-gr.jpg
- wich obviously matches the area I'm in, and would no doubt motivate a more exotic choice of material, but I'm still leaning more towards throwing knife varité-style, hmmm... I wonder.

What mostly interests me is probably how old it might be. In case we have anyone knowledgeable about manufacturing history, he or she could probably at least give an estimation of how old it could be tops, by extrapolating the methods for shaping metal against this design (?)

-Or tips about where I might find/contact such a person...

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Waldemar Duszka




Location: Polska
Joined: 25 May 2012

Posts: 57

PostPosted: Mon 16 Sep, 2013 9:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This can be a dagger special forces from the German World War II.
Or some air units "damage" to the end it may indicate that the lining is sure is we make, not the age.

Ibor
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Mon 16 Sep, 2013 10:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Emil Freding wrote:
Thanks for the response so far =)

Well, I grew up in a machine-shop fabricating in metal, and I might be ignorant about blade-making, but I believe that unless someone has a serious skill, machine-shop and/or forgery, this is not hand-made.


I guess I should clarify, by "hand made" I think we meant that it is not something that looks like it was, obviously at least, produced in a factory. I've no doubt that various machines were used in the production as they are on most items that are considered hand made in the knife world.

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Eric W. Norenberg





Joined: 18 Jul 2008

Posts: 265

PostPosted: Mon 16 Sep, 2013 11:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not claiming to know anything about this particular knife, but there were some official military issued trench knives in WWI that had solid brass handles, so I would not automatically discount some military connection based solely on handle material. I feel like I've seen that stamped "K" somewhere before but I can't recall where. The shape of the thing kind of reminds me of a French Nail, an expedient anti-sentry piece but I have never seen one of those so well made or with brass hardware.
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Eric W. Norenberg





Joined: 18 Jul 2008

Posts: 265

PostPosted: Mon 16 Sep, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

More I think about it, I think Waldemar called it. That "K" is a Solingen makers mark or issue mark. Kauffmann maybe. Reminds me of the stamp on the K55 folder. I know that's a thin connection tho.
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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Sep, 2013 4:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does the blade have a concave recess on one side (meaning it has a crescent-like cross section)?
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Sep, 2013 5:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Someone elsewhere suggested that it was a bulb planting tool which may be where the question about the concave side is going?
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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Sep, 2013 6:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Going the same way: I think it might be a modified Hori Hori, Japanese gardening knife. http://blog.blithewold.org/wp-content/uploads...i-hori.jpg
Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Sep, 2013 12:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yep, that was the same thing the other guys were saying, this one doesn't have the partially serrated side that those knives typically have though. However, it's not a bad thought that's for sure.
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Emil Freding




Location: Spain
Joined: 08 Aug 2013

Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat 21 Sep, 2013 3:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I appreciate all the suggestions, folks!

But no. This knife has a sharp edge and no concave surfaces. This is NOT a planting tool. I have plenty of experience with Japanese tools for artisans, and no Japanese crafter would make tools with brass handles. Also, people rarely garden much around here, this is semi-desert climate, making it even less likely.

Again, this knife was found among old stuff in a street market in far south of Spain. It is unlikely to have been produced after the Franco dictatorship period. (1936 to 1975) I highly doubt that this is a combat knife since the penetrating performance of this wide tip is not up to par with any such small combat knife I know of... If anyone has a picture with such WWI or WWII German military issue knives suggested earlier, that would be nice.

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