| Is using a sword as a camping tool a good idea? |
| Yes |
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| No |
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[ 75 ] |
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| Total Votes : 77 |
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Scott Hanson
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 Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Having had a little time to read, now I think I can make a few recommendations.
You could try a Condor or Cold Steel Barong. They're fairly sword-like. Cold Steel also has a Cutlass machete. I've got that one, and it's a little heavier duty than the Condor Bush Cutlass, from what I've heard.
You might also try a tactical sword from Miller Bros. or Busse, though they are considerably more expensive than what you're looking at.
For my money, I think I'd get a good small machete, a folding saw, and a multi-tool. I'm still working out which ones to get. I've got a Svord Kiwi machete, and that is just a little on the small side for me, but it's tough as nails so it could do anything you're looking to do.
Proverbs 27:17 "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another"
Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA)
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate
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B. Stark
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 11:26 am Post subject: |
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I would definitely make a vote for a kukri for backpacking/ bushcraft. They are more a tool that doubles as a weapon. However, you would be wanting a real kukri and not a tourist piece or an 'americanised' version. Most makers of kukri overbuild there's thus making them overly heavy and unwieldy. A common problem with swords 15+ years ago with some minor exceptions. So for a proper accurately made kukri you either need an original or a new manufactured one. Windlass is still selling kukris from there Kathmandu Armory procurement and Tora Blades is the only outfit I would say is truly following original kukri tradition. Himalayan Imports makes nice sturdy but HEAVY kukri.
Your other choice might be a Filipino Barong by Kris cutlery, or perhaps a Ginunting. These 'swords' often doubled or originated as field tools but were effective weapons. Ask the US Army. The Moro Innsurrection brought those blades up close and personal for our boys back then!
Best thing, do some research, make some purchases and try stuff out. Only then will you truly know just what will suit your needs.
Don't use a sword however. If you're curious you might look at Zombie Blades though you will pay for what purchase.
"Wyrd bi∂ ful aræd"
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Michael Pikula
Industry Professional
Location: Madison, WI Joined: 07 Jun 2008
Posts: 411
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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The sword, in a historical context, is a very specific tool, intended for a very specific task. Each element that goes into a sword is designed and intended to work toward that very specific task. It can be used for an array of different tasks, however there are other tools out there that are better suited for said tasks.
If you are dead set on carrying a "sword" with you on your camping adventures than you would be better suited to take a look at modern offering such as tactical swords. A historical sword in your given setting would be as suitable a tool as using a computer server as a boat anchor.
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Choo-Leong Kua
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Tanner Sheltry wrote: | Swords were never designed to take that kind of abuse. Most sword will end up twisting and take a set.
Japanese swords are thicker than most European swords but they are only held together by two bamboo pegs making it not very strong. If the Ito it removed the handle becomes extremely weak and has a good chance of cracking.
European swords have thinner blades than Japanese swords but have a much stronger handle constructions. I've hit my swords on my cutting stand lots of times and they are fine but I couldn't imagine cutting down a tree with them.If you really want a sword for camping you'd probably be best of with a falchion or a seax. They usually served double service as a weapon and a farm tool.
My best suggestion is to just by your self a good machete. |
I'd like to give a little historical perspective regarding the construction of Japanese swords hilts (tsuka).
The overwhelming majority of antique swords have only one mekugi (bamboo pegs), the exception is for very long and heavy swords (typically blades over 35 inches with very long hilts) and that's all that's needed since the purpose of the mekugi is not as a retaining peg and more of a way to seat the tang and hilt securely together. The wooden handle core is carved very exacting to the tang. So much so, that the friction fit between the tang and core is what primarily holds the sword and hilt together. The tangs have filing patterns cut into them so as to help it grip the wooden handle interior firmly. In fact, very well carved tsuka should hold the sword in place in a full swing even without the mekugi in place! The mekugi is made of seasoned bamboo because it has a tendency to not break cleanly, so even if the mekugi is broken, it is firmly wedged into the tsuka and will prevent the sword from separating from the hilt.
A very well fitted tsuka core prevents the tang from moving around and rattling as well as more evenly distribute the forces when using the sword to cut or parry. In addition, the fuchi and kashira are metal caps that encapsulates the top and bottom of the tsuka, meaning it will prevent the wood from cracking, and if it does, it ensures that the hilt will not fall apart in use. Most Japanese swords have panels of stingray skin (samegawa) glued to the wooden core, although some had full wrapped stingray skins that further reinforces the core. Finally, leather or silk cord is wrapped very tightly over the stingray skin, resulting in a multi-layer, and very strong hilt that absorbs vibration and prevents cracking.
So, in conclusion, a historically accurate tsuka is a very strong model and has been used for countless centuries through times of peace and war. I've read accounts of skilled martial artists that perform heavy tameshigiri (cutting multiple tatami mats and thick bamboo) regularly with custom high end swords or Nihonto (genuine traditionally made Japanese swords) and not experience any problems whatsoever in their tsuka.
The issue is that most reproductions on the market tend to overshadow historically accurate performing tsuka in favor of tough and well cutting blades. The two mekugi seen in most reproductions is a case of "more is better" and "better safe than sorry" since often the tsuka cores are not painstakingly carved to fit the tang like a glove, and use shims and two mekugi to prevent any rattling and as load bearing pegs. Unfortunately, this extra space in the tsuka and the fact the mekugi are used as load bearers can causes the forces to not distribute evenly on cuts and tend to make the tsuka crack on heavy impact. Most reproduction Japanese sword manufacturers do not exhibit the high degree of detail or research in their hilts as say a sword made by Arms and Armor or Albion.
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B. Stark
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Here is an example of a Tora Blades villager type kukri. It's under a pound , 1/4" thick, OAL is 20" and short of logs over 4" in diameter can be used for chopping kindling, or chopping off or for shorter lengths. Mine came with a smaller by-knife about 4"+ OAL called a karda as well as a fire-steel/blade burnisher called a chakmak. Supremely useful for hiking etc. You can easily make a fairly secure and comfortable long term emergency shelter or pretty much anything else for that matter.
Personally, I despise the leave no trace notion of backpacking other than under one particular reason set. That being that when larger and larger numbers of people frequent wild lands their impact becomes exponential and the introduction of motor vehicles, garbage and waste of modern society is the culprit. That and UNNECESSARY damage to wildlands. However, if my campsite shows that a human was in the woods in the sense that the ground is disturbed, or the very thin remains of campfire are evident or other low impact evidence then that shouldn't be an issue. This notion that we humans are no longer a part of the wild has led to an ever increasing apathy about the wild as it really is. Take a look at what a beaver does to surrounding tree stands adjacent to it's lodge. What a herd of elk willl do to an area that they brows and wallow in. The Sierra Club mentality is'look but don't touch', ever increasing the distance between humanity and it's connection with the wild. AS IF we actually belong in unhealthy, polluting, beehive cities and that it is our more natural environment(for some it very well seems to be). 30 years as an outdoorsman have shown me otherwise.
As too the appropriateness of whether you would need such a knife, I vote absolutely, considering that it can be used for a multitude of things(even digging a hole if need be) it is the most excellent companion for true out-backing as you would find in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana,Wyoming, Colorado and Northern California. Let alone places like Central and South America. The Nepalese swear by them(literally in some cases) as do the British Gurkha Regiments.
"Wyrd bi∂ ful aræd"
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Colt Reeves
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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My two cents: When I was in Boy Scouts my father and I usually carried little folding pocket knives, while some others ran around with the biggest pieces of sharpened steel they could find. This led me to a simple conclusion: It is the mark of a newbie to camping/mall ninja/crazy/unprepared/etc if you watch them whip out a 12" bowie knife to peel an apple... Nine out of ten camping chores and for that matter urban cutting tasks can be accomplished with nothing but a simple pocket knife. (This is not to say you can't use a 12" bowie for everything if you don't want to carry the little knife, but understand why it is you are doing so and choose it for a good reason.)
What does this mean about the OP? Well, a sword is a big honkin' piece of steel, and regardless of the other reasons that have been gone over by those more experienced and knowledgeable than I, like I said above, that's not really what you need for most tasks. Do you want a double edged weapon of war that is badly balanced for cutting wood fly back at you as you struggle to yank its overly fine bevel out of a stump you got it stuck in? I'd wager you'd stop carrying it after a trip or two.
"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Colt Reeves wrote: | My two cents: When I was in Boy Scouts my father and I usually carried little folding pocket knives, while some others ran around with the biggest pieces of sharpened steel they could find. This led me to a simple conclusion: It is the mark of a newbie to camping/mall ninja/crazy/unprepared/etc if you watch them whip out a 12" bowie knife to peel an apple... Nine out of ten camping chores and for that matter urban cutting tasks can be accomplished with nothing but a simple pocket knife. (This is not to say you can't use a 12" bowie for everything if you don't want to carry the little knife, but understand why it is you are doing so and choose it for a good reason.)
What does this mean about the OP? Well, a sword is a big honkin' piece of steel, and regardless of the other reasons that have been gone over by those more experienced and knowledgeable than I, like I said above, that's not really what you need for most tasks. Do you want a double edged weapon of war that is badly balanced for cutting wood fly back at you as you struggle to yank its overly fine bevel out of a stump you got it stuck in? I'd wager you'd stop carrying it after a trip or two. |
Indeed, a utility knife like a puukko or similar, and a camp or small axe are plenty. In certain areas, other specialized tools might be useful e.g. a parang or machete.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Harry Marinakis
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Hi, my name is Dustin. I'm a n00b with a strange questi |
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| Dustin Schulten wrote: | | ...I am fully aware of my impact and I never take anything alive...I also do my best to cover my tracks from sites I have been to so they can be used again in the future. You'll never be able to tell I was at a camp site. Ever... |
Excellent! Good to hear. No impact - except for the cut brush. And sawed branches. And split timber. And chain saw debris. But otherwise no impact.
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Tyler Jordan
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Kukris are handy, and you could get a Cold Steel Kukri machete (they sadly discontinued their LTC kukris) or katana machete as a nice compromise. Inexpensive and tough as hell. You may be able to get away with something resembling a langseax, as they're rather machete-like, but when it comes down to it you're substituting for a job that could be done better with a machete+pack/aviator axe. Not to say it's a bad thing, and if you want to explore the use of a sword or sword-like tool in the field, then feel free! If you're just looking to pack smarter, a sword is not the way to go.
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P. Schontzler
Location: WA, USA Joined: 15 Apr 2013
Posts: 99
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Hi, my name is Dustin. I'm a n00b with a strange questi |
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| Christopher B Lellis wrote: |
I say no only because a sword is a very large bladed weapon and you might attract some unwanted attention with a sword hanging off your hip.
That's the only reason. In the right hands, a sword is absolutely deadly to anything. You can cut a bears neck so wide open it will never get up again but do you want to get that close to a bear?No you don't. |
For sure you don't want to get that close to a bear, there's a good chance it would overpower you far quicker than you can defend yourself. But I highly doubt a sword would be that effective against the thick layer of fur, thick skin, and fat padding.
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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There were a number of military short swords in history that were made for do-all purposes. Generally with cast brass handles but there were some slimmer engineer swords with saw backs and wood slab grips. Both originals and reproductions abound.
Here is a Russian 1827 (truly a beast) and they do circulate as reproductions.
Cheers
GC
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Glen A Cleeton wrote: | There were a number of military short swords in history that were made for do-all purposes. Generally with cast brass handles but there were some slimmer engineer swords with saw backs and wood slab grips. Both originals and reproductions abound.
Here is a Russian 1827 (truly a beast) and they do circulate as reproductions.
Cheers
GC |
The Dutch Klewang also comes to mind. Apparently, it was also used as a machete.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Tanner Sheltry
Location: Oklahoma Joined: 08 Apr 2013
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Evidentaly I've made several wrong comments. 
the more skill a man has with his weapon the more gentle and courteous should he behave, for in truth this is rightly the honour of a brave Gentleman, and so much more is he to be esteemed: he must not be a bragger, or lier, and without truth in his word, because there is nothing more to be required of a man than to know himself" - Vincentio Saviolo
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Ian Hutchison wrote: | | Glen A Cleeton wrote: | There were a number of military short swords in history that were made for do-all purposes. Generally with cast brass handles but there were some slimmer engineer swords with saw backs and wood slab grips. Both originals and reproductions abound.
Here is a Russian 1827 (truly a beast) and they do circulate as reproductions.
Cheers
GC |
The Dutch Klewang also comes to mind. Apparently, it was also used as a machete. |
There are/were dozens of more sturdy swords than the klewang but they are certainly qualifiers for brush work. The Cold Steel "1917" cutlass is still available (as are originals).
The Condor brush cutlass has proven to be popular and cheap but those are not heavy blades, nor saw back.
The French models of the naval/infantry and artillery gladius types were geared specifically for the task of wood work. No saw on most of those but also made en masse by the US as the 1832 heavy artilllery (based on the French 1816).
The Swiss saw back engineer's bayonets are relatively slim compared to the messers and gladius of the 19th century.
The Russian 1827 shown above proved to be very sharp crosscut teeth on the back. I would think dandy for branches up to a couple of inches and way stout enough for splitting, even batoning.
The trade off, of course is weight and true needs. Listed by others in the thread are a few popular ideas but I have replied to show some of the sword alternatives.
Cheers
GC
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Jason Daub
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Hi, my name is Dustin. I'm a n00b with a strange questi |
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| P. Schontzler wrote: | | Christopher B Lellis wrote: |
I say no only because a sword is a very large bladed weapon and you might attract some unwanted attention with a sword hanging off your hip.
That's the only reason. In the right hands, a sword is absolutely deadly to anything. You can cut a bears neck so wide open it will never get up again but do you want to get that close to a bear?No you don't. |
For sure you don't want to get that close to a bear, there's a good chance it would overpower you far quicker than you can defend yourself. But I highly doubt a sword would be that effective against the thick layer of fur, thick skin, and fat padding. |
A thrust would be highly effective, and hunting bear in Europe in the Middle Ages with the sword was highly esteemed, but we have better tools for that now. Bear spray and firearms work and you don't run the same risk of getting as close to the bear. Never forget how lethal bladed weapons are, a bow hunter near me killed a sow grizzly with three thrusts from a hunting knife, she made 30m before dying, he needed surgery to insert plates to repair a broken arm.
As for the rest, I agree wholeheartedly with the earlier post by B.Stark. A kukri has replaced my long time companion, the Estwing 24" camping axe. There is also something magical about using a campsite that may have been used by Sir Alexander MacKenzie during his east to west crossing of North America to the Pacific (ten years before Lewis and Clark). Or, setting your fire in a fire pit and finding that it must have been used by fellow hunters for several centuries as you find a 38-55 cartridge and stone arrowheads when you clear the duff before lighting it.
'I saw young Harry, -with his bevor on,
His cuisses on his thighs, gallantly arm'd,-
Rise from the ground like feather'd Mercury,
And vaulted with such ease into his seat,
As if an angel dropp'd down from the clouds,
To turn and wind a fiery Pegasus,
And witch the world with noble horsemanship.'
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Mon 22 Jul, 2013 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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From Blackmore's Hunting Weaons
There are several plates and anecdotes in the title, as far as possibles go.
Cheers
GC
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Dustin Schulten
Location: United States Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jul, 2013 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Hi, my name is Dustin. I'm a n00b with a strange questi |
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| Harry Marinakis wrote: | | Dustin Schulten wrote: | | ...I am fully aware of my impact and I never take anything alive...I also do my best to cover my tracks from sites I have been to so they can be used again in the future. You'll never be able to tell I was at a camp site. Ever... |
Excellent! Good to hear. No impact - except for the cut brush. And sawed branches. And split timber. And chain saw debris. But otherwise no impact. |
Cry me a river and build me a boat..
oh wait, you can't.. Too high impact, right?
I don't know what's worse, ignorance, or the inability to read an entire post.
I use chainsaws to clear dead fall from single track motorcycling trails. --and last I checked, sawdust is the epitome of biodegradable.
When in the bush, I leave no trace, I'm doing the forest a massive favor where I camp. Fire prevention. I am removing and burning dead, dry old trees and branches. If the forest could thank me it would. I thank mother nature for her bounty every time I'm out. I am not the problem.
Massive crowds traveling the same trails every day do. With their dogs that they don't pick up after, trash being left everywhere, social trails being created because of lazy asses that cut switchbacks, I could go on and on. You can bitch all you want about me, but I'm not the person you're looking for. I'm a volunteer at multiple forest services in Colorado and state parks. I am also an avid 4 wheel drive enthusiast and am a "Stay the Trail" ambassador, both in my Jeep and on my enduro motorcycles. Seriously, I use BLM land when I'm out. You can do whatever you want on BLM land. Direct your condescending commentary to someone else less informed than me. Because right now you just look like a troll. I'm a biology major with a forestry degree. I've volunteered as a wild land firefighter for Colorado for the past 6 years, too.. Really man, I've heard it all and preached it myself before. You're words are moot here, sir. If you're ever in Colorado I'll give you GPS coordinates to several of my makeshift campsites. See if you can pinpoint where I've actually been. Did I tell you I planted trees in Rocky Mountain National Forest after the beetle kill epidemic? Yeah.. I've probably planted some 2,500 trees in the forests of Colorado. Preach your green boy Californian B.S. somewhere else. It's cute and everything and you seem like a concerned individual, but you're really barking up the wrong tree(no pun intended). Because I know what I'm talking about. I'm not "Billy the weekend warrior" out with his quad shooting his guns, drinking cheap beer, creating erosion problems off trail, killing helpless wildlife, and turning places into his own personal dumpster.
.....To everyone else; Thank you for the multitude of wonderful responses, I have read every single word of every post and you are all correct. A sword just isn't up to the job. It bums me out that it was nothing more than a pipe dream to be able to use a sword for something that I would deem extremely useful to myself. I'll be looking into several of the alternatives you all have offered up. Although a machete/or kukri isn't really my style and I knew of their existence, they do fill the void between weapon and tool. Just not as cool. Also, Cold Steel's axes seem pretty legitimate. It might be interesting to see what I could build as a permanent camp shelter on my property with just that rifleman's hawk axe and some roughly forged nails. Could be an interesting write up.
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Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional
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Mike Janis
Location: Atlanta GA Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jul, 2013 10:24 am Post subject: |
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I’ll join the people saying get a machete, not a sword.
OP said: | Quote: | | Maybe I was just looking for an excuse to actually use a sword for something. As I have found no practical use for one yet, in my life that is. |
I’m sorry, there is no practical use for a sword in today’s world. But, then there is no practical use for a beautiful sunset or a rainbow either. But I don't want to give any of them up.
I spent almost every weekend for four years hiking the Appalachian Trail. I recommend a good bowie knife. The pommel works like a hammer, it is strong enough to split wood and it will (not practical but fun) make you feel a connection with Daniel, Davy, Hugh Glass and Liver-eaten Johnson. Then when you get back home, strap on a sword and feel the connection to the Gason and his three friends.
MikeJ
Last edited by Mike Janis on Tue 23 Jul, 2013 11:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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P. Schontzler
Location: WA, USA Joined: 15 Apr 2013
Posts: 99
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| Posted: Tue 23 Jul, 2013 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Glen A Cleeton wrote: | From Blackmore's Hunting Weaons
There are several plates and anecdotes in the title, as far as possibles go.
Cheers
GC |
I think the most important detail showing medieval bear hunting with daggers/swords is the hunter is wearing plate, which is not so practical on the trail. 
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