[Spenser T.]

Hello,

I want to discuss the terminology of the scottish basket hilted broadsword and the two handed claymore. I have seen in my travels around the internet the two handed variant being referred to as 'claidheamh dà làimh' and I have also read that some people think calling the basket hilted variety a claymore is incorrect.
I study scottish gaelic as a hobby and at this point in my studies I have encountered a decent number of people are fluent speakers of the language. Being a sword geek, I have asked a couple of these people about this terminology issue when it comes to these swords and I have recieved this answer:

I was told that both swords were called claidheamh mòr. The reason for this that I was given is that Scottish gaelic is heavily rooted in Irish thought, (please dont kill me Scottish people) and in the pre-viking days apparently the Irish swords were very small (The size of a roman gladius at their largest.. most being smaller; hopefully someone more knowledgeable about ancient Irish swords will add insight on this). Therefore, in comparison to these small irish swords, even the basket hilt would be considered a big sword, and hence, a claymore.

However, there might be good reason to think that the basket hilts were not called claymores, and that claidheamh dà làimh was actually the name for the two hander? There must be good arguments for other sides of this story as well, and I would like to hear them. There's also the possibility that what I was told was incorrect, or that I am missing something.

What do you guys think? / Dè ur beachd?

[Michael Curl]

Out of interest could you break down what that term means in english?

[Mark Moore]

I have also been interested in the Gaelic language. I think a lot of it has to do with what particular dialect of the language you hear or speak, and when and where. As I understand it, there are many different dialect of Gaelic. Kinda like someone from Texas talking to someone from Wisconsin. Both are speaking English, but the meanings of some words can get a bit muddled. (I know this for a fact, as I constantly ask my Wisconsin wife--"What did you just say?".) The Gaelic word 'mor' or 'mohr' simply means 'great', 'big', or 'large'. The word 'claidheamh-mohr' just means 'big sword', but if the term is understood as 'great sword', then it could be interperated as what we understand as a two hander. That's my thinking anyway. I may be way off also. Then again, a 'sgian dubh' is a 'black-or hidden- knife'......Why is a dirk not a 'sgian-mohr'? Gaelic is a truly unusual language. ....Just my rambling two cents...........McM

[Lin Robinson]

In the book Scottish Weapons and Fortifications by David Caldwell, there is a chapter discussing this issue which was written by the late Claude Blair, with a contribution by Stuart Maxwell. This book, by the way, is a compilation of numerous works on the subject matter of the title. I suggest you try to find a copy of the book, which I believe may be out of print but available through Amazon.

To summarize what the article says, it basically opines that the term "Claymore" from 1715 onward - as far as known documentation goes - referred to the basket hilt sword. Certainly there is considerable documentation during the late Jacobite era in which these swords are referred to as claymores. In post-Jacobite Britain the usage is universal. There is a tradition that two-handed swords were in use as late at 1745 but this has not been supported by documentation and I personally consider that to be extremely unlikely.

Thomas Pennant wrote, in 1772, a piece on his visit to Talisker on Raasay in which he describes a two-handed sword owned by a Mr. Macleod, referring to it as a "Cly-more"(sic). As an example of Mr. Pennant's grasp of the history of these weapons, he considers that these types of swords were used in Scotland from Roman times to Culloden, which is of course incorrect and wildly speculative on his part.

When Boswell and Johnson took their tour of the Highlands in 1773 they visited Dunvegan where they viewed a two-handed sword which had belonged to Sir Roderick Macleod and wrote that it was called a Glaymore "(sic). They also mentioned the basket hilt broadsword which "though called the Glaymore, (i.e.the great sword.) is much smaller than that used in Rorie More's time."

Stuart Maxwell's part of the article supports the Boswell and Johnson point of view.

The article covers some more areas but in essence supports the application of "claymore" to the basket hilt sword. I have not personally run across any contemporary reference referring to the two-handed sword as a claymore but if there is one out there, someone will surely produce it for us. For me, the correct term will be for either sword. The use of claymore to refer to the two-handed sword, rightly or wrongly, has become universal and to try to change it now would create mass confusion!

Hope this has helped.

[Spenser T.]

[Stephen Curtin]

I suspect that in their day, the Highland Scottish two hander was mostly just referred to as claidheamh. People in the past rarely seem to make distinctons between the different shapes and sizes of sword in their terminology, for instance the modern mind has a very clear idea of what a gladius looks like, but to an ancient Roman it simply meant sword.

[Christopher Lee]

I don't think there will be a simple or straightforward answer to the question of what a claymore is or isn't. As has been seen frequently the ancestors didn't really bother with categories that much. Also given the sometimes slow rate of cultural dissemination, regional cultural variations, dialects, etc, I suspect the same thing could be called different names at the same time in different regions.

I wouldn't ascribe to the idea that Irish perceptions of sword sizes influenced the naming of the Scottish 'claymore' or 'big sword'. The Irish may well have had smaller swords than some other continental cultures at a certain point in time but there are examples of quite respectably sized iron age swords found in Ireland. Also, it is believed that not long after encountering the vikings, the Irish adopted the hiberno-norse style of swords commonly used throughout the region and of similar size to those used by the vikings themselves. Also, prior to their contact with the vikings the Irish had contact with the Saxons and other proto-english kingdoms and would have been well aware of sword sizes across the Irish Sea. Lets also not forget that some Irish kingdoms would regularly raid the British coastline, no doubt coming into contact with the sharp pointy end of the local militias.

Also, the Scottish claymore didn't appear until the late 16thC, almost 500 years after the Irish began encountering swords larger (in theory) than their own, and well after the Irish had already been engaged in battles against the English, Scottish, Welsh, etc, etc .. My feeling is that the term 'claidheamh mòr', was, like the sword, a Scottish invention. The confusion seemingly stems from the term being applied to two different swords from two different eras.

"The first type is the weapon called in Scotland the claidheamh mor, or claymore, that is, the weapon properly so called. It was the custom in the last century to refer to the Scottish variety of the basket hilted broad sword of the 18th century as a claymore. If that name was ever applied to it in the period of its use, it was as a name transferred from the original weapon which it had superseded as the characteristic Highland arm.
From: "Sixteenth Century Swords Found in Ireland" by G. A. Hayes-McCoy

Hayes-McCoy also suggests a relationship between the characteristics of the two handed swords and the Scottish single handed swords of the 16thC; downward sloping quilions, decorative terminals and other similarities, even going to far as to refer to 'single handed claymores' as opposed to the 'two handed claymores'.

"The anglecised version of the of the word 'claymore' was first used in the seventeenth century but at the time meant a basket-hilted broadsword. Only later did 'claymore' come to mean a two handed sword."
From: Scottish Arms and Armour by Fergis Cannan

I would take the above to suggest that the misapplication of the term 'claymore' could possibly be a Victorian invention, a bit of misplaced romantic antiquarianism.

But to muddy the waters even further there are the 'halflang' swords or what we would refer as hand and a half, 'clam shellit' two hander, broadsword, 'backed' sword and so on. Interestingly from a muster role in 1638, there is mention of men armed with the 'tua handit swird', not a 'claymore' but specifically a two handed sword. If the term was in common use then I would have expected it to be used in contemporary documents. Similarly the 'clam shellit' swords, even though they are two handers of similar dimensions to that of claymores are not described as such. Also they do not share the classic downward sloping quillons or decorated terminals.

Anyway, consider the can of worms well and truly open

[Lin Robinson]

Here is something I left out of my post of yesterday, which was included in Stuart Maxwell's postscript to Blair's piece in the Caldwell book.

Mr. Maxwell had sent a query to Kenneth MacDonald, who was the editor of The Historical Dictionary of Scottish Gaelic. The query regarded the use of the Gaelic word claidheamh mor prior to its anglicized translation to "claymore". Mr. MacDonald reported they could not find it in use in Gaelic until 1880 when it was found in Gaelic poetry by Mary MacKellar. That is interesting and I would like to get a copy of the Dictionary to see if they uncovered any more usages because, as I wrote earlier, I have personally never encountered it being used for a two-handed sword in any contemporary lit. However, after nearly fifty years the Dictionary is still a work in progress and not available, apparently, to the general public.

Maxwell actually lays the use of Claymore to describe a two-hander at the feet of Pennant and Boswell.

[Spenser T.]

Interesting!
I never once considered that the term would have been applied to the basket-hilt and then the two hander. The idea that it wouldn't have been in use until well after the jacobite uprising is equally mind-blowing.

Thank you all for the info on this subject; I swear I learn more at myArmoury than I do at university.

[Sam Barris]

FWIW, I heard the same story Christopher did (or at least that Fergis Cannan did), that the term applied to the basket-hilted variety before the two-handers and was then retroactively applied to those too. I don't remember where I heard that, but I want to say it was in something Hank Reinhardt wrote. Something along the lines of, "the Scots can call two different weapons by the same name if they want to and there isn't any use quibbling over it." That's at best a loose paraphrasing, not a quote.

To address your original question, I've never heard anyone suggest that the term did not refer to the Scottish basket-hilt.

[P. Schontzler]

[Lin Robinson]

[Ste Kenwright]

Just to try to keep myself from rambling, I'll try to address Spenser's original post and defer to several excellent points which have come up and give an essential reference:

[Lin Robinson]

[Ste Kenwright]

[Lin Robinson]

Well-said Ste...

I have obtained a copy of SPADA 2 which arrived in yesterday's mail (had to clear another space on one of the many book shelves in my office). The article on "Claymore" was interesting but I did not feel that it broke any new ground, supporting, instead, the statements which have been made in the various posts in this forum. They do opine that the term "broadsword" is a Scottish word for the basket hilt and certainly the terms are used interchangibly. I do it all the time but I am not certain, although I have never thought of it before, that the word was actually coined to describe that particular weapon.

I guess this is a subject for more discussion

[Mark Moore]

This is just the reoccurring 'chicken or the egg' question. I honestly don't know a good answer. I guess, if you hear someone say the word 'claymore' regarding a Scottish sword.......just ask 'em........basket-hilt or two-hand?...........They're all Scot. I personally refer to them as basket-hilted broadsword and two-handed claymore, to avoid confusion. Even though many folk do, I have never referred to my basket-hilt as a 'claymore'...........only my two-hander. .............McM

[Jack Englund]

[Charles Dooley]

"Biodag" is apparently what people actually referred to dirks as.. and I have no idea what it means or where it came from


'Biodag' is a dialect form of 'Miodóg' an Irish word for 'Dagger'.

[Charles Dooley]

I was leafing through Stone's Glossary and came across the word 'Mattucashlass' a Scottish dagger worn in the armpit. It turns out the Gaelic name is 'biodag-achlais' which literally means 'dagger of armpit'. It looks like the original Gaelic word borrowed into Scots was 'Midóg-achlais'.