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Mike O'Hara
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 Posted: Wed 21 Nov, 2012 9:16 pm Post subject: Martial arts fitness |
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Gents
great discussion and agree with most of the points.
Without doubt the thing i find most useful and most exhausting done properly is kata. It is the only time you are allowed to 'kill' someone (in your head).
Done well and as is supposed to be, it brings together mind body and spirit and gives you the overall 'fitness' you need.
I'm still trying to experiment with what longsword kata might look like. You can certainly work thru the wards.
cheers
mike
MIke O'Hara
Location: Plimmerton, New Zealand
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Mark T
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| Posted: Wed 21 Nov, 2012 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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Here's one source on bodyweight training, suggested by a fencer and martial artist I trained with recently, who was not huge, but was both strong and very fast: Convict Conditioning: How to Bust Free of All Weakness--Using the Lost Secrets of Supreme Survival Strength, Paul Wade. The text is a little hyped, but the progression is good.
Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury
Schallern sind sehr sexy!
Last edited by Mark T on Thu 22 Nov, 2012 12:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Colt Reeves
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| Posted: Wed 21 Nov, 2012 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with both viewpoints to a certain extent. I used to be in Tae Kwon Do and my experiences have demonstrated that sometimes greater skill will beat greater fitness and vica versa.
For example, I have traded a few light blows with random guys in play and found I simply couldn't keep up with them, as they were jocks and despite a near total lack of training were faster and more coordinated. On the other hand, I was also able to apply some modern military grappling (we weren't exactly a traditional school of Tae Kwon Do) to easily defeat said jocks who thought brute strength and size would enable them to overpower me.
In my opinion it depends greatly on the situation, training, skill, fitness, etc. You can make a general statement that "usually" this will happen, but at the end of the day you can't be sure until you try it. In the case of myself above, I might point out that although I am not exactly the paragon of physical fitness, I am fairly capable for my size and exercise habits. I have seen plenty who received the same training as I who simply can't even come close due to a complete and utter lack of physical fitness. To be effective I would say you need a fair amount of both, the more the better.
"If It Was Not Art, The Strong Would Always Win." -Hanko Doebringer 1389.
"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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Ian S LaSpina
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 6:15 am Post subject: |
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With two people of equal fitness levels, skill will of course be the determining factor most of the time.
With two people of equal skill levels, fitness will of course be the determining factor most of the time.
When these things are not equal, fitness will become a more significant determining factor. I would venture to say that true skill can only be achieved when bult upon a strong foundation of fitness. Some of us are oversimplifying 'skill' to mean good technique. Technique is a small aspect of skill. A skillfull martial artist is someone who has both sound technique and is the master of his own body.
I don't think looking at swordsmanship as it's own unique sport helps anything either. Isolating it from any other sport is dangerous and leads to what any HEMA practicioner hates. That is when you mention you study medieval longsword, the public immediately envisions LARP, SCA, re-enactor combat.... anything but a genuine martial art. We do this to ourselves because so many people don't hold the same truths to be self-evident as they would with any other martial art.
If someone asked, is fitness important in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu? People would laugh because because the question is ridiculous, of course it's vitally important. The same can be said of any martial art. The fact that the question can be asked and taken seriously, and spur debate with regard to HEMA says it all. You cannot be skillful at a martial art if you are out of shape. You can have a flawless krumphau, but if you're winded 2 minutes in to a fight, you have great technique, but no real skill.
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T. Arndt
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Martial arts fitness |
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| Mike O'Hara wrote: | | ...I'm still trying to experiment with what longsword kata might look like. You can certainly work thru the wards. |
There is no reason to have to guess what a longsword kata *cough* flourish *cough* looked like because we have plenty of surviving ones. Here is one from Döbringer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoK8nvv0nZo
I think improvising flourishes are useful too.
Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate
“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Ian S LaSpina wrote: | With two people of equal fitness levels, skill will of course be the determining factor most of the time.
With two people of equal skill levels, fitness will of course be the determining factor most of the time.
When these things are not equal, fitness will become a more significant determining factor. I would venture to say that true skill can only be achieved when bult upon a strong foundation of fitness. Some of us are oversimplifying 'skill' to mean good technique. Technique is a small aspect of skill. A skillfull martial artist is someone who has both sound technique and is the master of his own body.
I don't think looking at swordsmanship as it's own unique sport helps anything either. Isolating it from any other sport is dangerous and leads to what any HEMA practicioner hates. That is when you mention you study medieval longsword, the public immediately envisions LARP, SCA, re-enactor combat.... anything but a genuine martial art. We do this to ourselves because so many people don't hold the same truths to be self-evident as they would with any other martial art.
If someone asked, is fitness important in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu? People would laugh because because the question is ridiculous, of course it's vitally important. The same can be said of any martial art. The fact that the question can be asked and taken seriously, and spur debate with regard to HEMA says it all. You cannot be skillful at a martial art if you are out of shape. You can have a flawless krumphau, but if you're winded 2 minutes in to a fight, you have great technique, but no real skill. |
Well said. I think the underlined is very important truth.
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Matthew P. Adams
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Mr Arndt, I have to agree with you.
Gentlemen, the entire point of the existence of any martial art is that skill and knowledge overcome speed and strength. While I strongly agree that physical fitness is very important, the whole idea of technique is that when the other guy is fast, you make your movements smaller, when he is stronger, you use balance and leverage. If your martial art only works when you are bigger and faster, then it ceases to be a martial art and becomes bullying.
Physical fitness is important because it allows you to practice until you reach that level of skill. Ever watch the economy of movement used by a high ranking martial artist? The movements are blindingly fast, because they are small. And they work because of the proper application of distance, leverage, balance, and movement.
I put forth that we in HEMA, and I absolutely include myself, and my instructors in this statement, have a long way to go. I think that a lot of our bouting looks all to close to SCA combat. When someone comes along who really "gets it" we will see an elegant economic martial art without the leaping into and out of distance and sword swatting that is all to common now.
Again, I know that I do this myself, and I am FAR from mastery. I'm not saying anyone is doing it better, but that we all need to improve as a community. That's why fitness is SO vitally important, because it allows the stamina to continue to practice until that speed and strength become superfluous.
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Ian S LaSpina wrote: | With two people of equal fitness levels, skill will of course be the determining factor most of the time.
With two people of equal skill levels, fitness will of course be the determining factor most of the time.
When these things are not equal, fitness will become a more significant determining factor. I would venture to say that true skill can only be achieved when bult upon a strong foundation of fitness. Some of us are oversimplifying 'skill' to mean good technique. Technique is a small aspect of skill. A skillfull martial artist is someone who has both sound technique and is the master of his own body.
I don't think looking at swordsmanship as it's own unique sport helps anything either. Isolating it from any other sport is dangerous and leads to what any HEMA practicioner hates. That is when you mention you study medieval longsword, the public immediately envisions LARP, SCA, re-enactor combat.... anything but a genuine martial art. We do this to ourselves because so many people don't hold the same truths to be self-evident as they would with any other martial art.
If someone asked, is fitness important in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu? People would laugh because because the question is ridiculous, of course it's vitally important. The same can be said of any martial art. The fact that the question can be asked and taken seriously, and spur debate with regard to HEMA says it all. You cannot be skillful at a martial art if you are out of shape. You can have a flawless krumphau, but if you're winded 2 minutes in to a fight, you have great technique, but no real skill. |
I mostly agree but commenting specifically on the sentences I highlighted ( Bold text ) I can think of some exceptions:
A) When one learned the techniques one was in shape but one is no longer in shape but still has the knowledge: Assuming a great deal more technical skill, being able to read the intentions of the opponent etc ..... one could still win against a fitter but inferior fighter. BUT, only if one won during the first few seconds of the encounter.
B) How about the old and frail Master with decades of experience also winning in the first 30 seconds of a fight.
C) Some martial styles demand great fitness, agility and acrobatic skills, but others depend more on timing and judgement of measure and a sound tactical mind.
O.K. but all things being equal being out of shape is a great disadvantage if one can't apply one's skills after the initial closing into measure, and I really like your first two sentences.  
| Quote: | With two people of equal fitness levels, skill will of course be the determining factor most of the time.
With two people of equal skill levels, fitness will of course be the determining factor most of the time. |
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | B) How about the old and frail Master with decades of experience also winning in the first 30 seconds of a fight. |
Exactly.  I think people are taking the fitness/technique comparison to extremes in this thread. If you take a person who is incredibly fit against a person who is in terrible shape with only average technique, then sure, the guy in incredible shape has the upper hand. But frankly, that's true the other way around: A person with incredible technique who is marginally in shape will probably destroy someone who is very fit but has no sense of distance, timing, or even how to parry. You simply can't say that fitness wins over technique *except* in these very unrealistic scenarios.
I have a friend, Alex, who was a high school wrestler, and apparently was once upon a time very, very good. He's in his 30's now, works a desk job, and doesn't necessarily go out of the way to do much exercise other than some light walks. He's not in terrible shape, but he's certainly no athlete. Our friend Scott, who is in his early 20s, has recently joined the Army. Scott is in great shape, and is required to do the physical demands of his career. He is incredibly strong, and I have no doubt he could lift me in the air and throw me several feet if I let him. He is doing some martial arts in his basic training, but is otherwise still new to martial arts.
So Scott, the younger and stronger of the two, kept wanting to wrestle. Alex kept saying, "I'm too old, you'll kick my butt", but eventually Scott convinced him. Alex *DESTROYED* him about 5 or 6 times in a row. He had Scott pinned where Scott was completely helpless. After that, Alex said, "I"m too old and out of shape, I'm tired. I'm quitting now." Alex may have been the out of shape one, but his high school training stayed with his muscle memory well enough to take out a much younger man. Maybe in the long run Scott would have tired him out, but in a real fight he never would have gotten the chance to last that long.
Would Scott fair better if he had more training? Undoubtedly. In fact, I'm sure Alex would agree that, given another year of technique training, Scott's fitness would be the determining factor and would have one. But his lack of skill meant he had no idea how to counter an arm bar or a figure 4 lock, which meant that all of his strength was pretty much useless. Alex's better technique, no matter how out of practice, allowed him to move efficiently enough not to expend the extra energy.
Technique is even more important in swordsmanship. You might be able to outlast the other guy in stamina, but if he cuts your head in two within the first few seconds, then it doesn't matter. Fitness is incredibly important, but knowledge of how to apply that fitness is far more important.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Martial arts fitness |
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| T. Arndt wrote: | There is no reason to have to guess what a longsword kata *cough* flourish *cough* looked like because we have plenty of surviving ones. Here is one from Döbringer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoK8nvv0nZo
I think improvising flourishes are useful too. |
To be fair, the text of that form is incredibly vague, and while I think Keith's interpretations is good, the original source is too unclear for us to call that a true "kata" of HEMA.
The Bolognese and the Portuguese, however, have some FANTASTIC forms for many of the different weapon styles. Some of these forms are incredibly long and reasonably difficult to master, and most of the surviving texts are pretty explicit in how to perform the actions (sometimes they are slightly vague, but far less so than earlier texts). Also, Joachim Meyer has some excellent solo drills. All of the above are great for both technique and fitness.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Timo Nieminen
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | Technique is even more important in swordsmanship. You might be able to outlast the other guy in stamina, but if he cuts your head in two within the first few seconds, then it doesn't matter. Fitness is incredibly important, but knowledge of how to apply that fitness is far more important. |
For a duel, or a one-on-one sudden encounter. Perhaps different on a battlefield.
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Ian S LaSpina
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | B) How about the old and frail Master with decades of experience also winning in the first 30 seconds of a fight. |
Exactly. |
Hang on a second... there's record of this happening outside of the movies?
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"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
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Matthew P. Adams
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Yup.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zzo8mMHbRY
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Sam Gordon Campbell
Location: Australia. Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 678
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Right!
Everyone get in to their armour and we'll fight it out to see who's more right! 
Actually, this brings up a point. I assume thus far we've been discussing unarmoured, but what about armoured?
I'd say that (just vaguely comparing a pro-militia dude then to modern practitioner) if you can't perform as well in armour as out out of it (say a half hour competitive spar between multiple people [so you not only go for a while continuously but have to 'spike/accelerate' in speed, and strength when required]) then, comparatively, you could do better.
Just a thought.
Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Ian S LaSpina
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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A sensei demonstrating technique on younger students is not what I'm talking about This video is demonstrating nothing more than drilling techniques.. The idea of the ancient frail master using their almost magical prowess is a thing of fiction as far as I've seen in my research. We're not talking about ancient ninja secrets and Jedi Masters here. I think the idea of the old frail master trouncing the fit young student is a thing of fantasy and fiction.
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"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
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Jimi Edmonds
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting thread this, for myself I am fairly fit, (though could be fitter), but with work and life in general I don't have alot of time to go out and exersize, and some days, as my job is rather physical I'm pretty nacked by the end of it.
But that being said I try (most nights) to get out in the eveing, after I got the kids to bed and do atleast an hours worth of drill, and that would consist of either going through strikes/stepps/certain techniques/plays/floyish etc. plus doing situps and the odd bit of skip rope.
Its not much but it all helps, as I have found that if I stop this for a week or two I feel I lose that edge. Though with drilling almost every night it gives me that better skill level over my opponent, and they for now are all about 12-15years my junior, and should be faster and fitter, but then its not so as being 18-22year olds they just haven't yet realised that you need to really put in practice and research, plus they spend alot of time infront of the ole' Xbox.
When it comes down to it though I want to be able to beat my opponent through skill and cunning and to be able to go the distance.
As a side note, I have never done any form of martial arts, and was suffering the affects of ocupational overuse syndrome (from work) in my wrists and lower back, and since having taking up the longsword (Liechtenauer tradition) it has greatly affected and improved my fitness, reflex, balance, thought, posture and has done wonders for my wrists and back, plus being a good stress reliever and mind set focus amoung other things!.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Ian S LaSpina wrote: | | The idea of the ancient frail master using their almost magical prowess is a thing of fiction as far as I've seen in my research. We're not talking about ancient ninja secrets and Jedi Masters here. I think the idea of the old frail master trouncing the fit young student is a thing of fantasy and fiction. |
But again, we're going to extremes. Admittedly, the quote I liked from Jean used the word "frail", and that in itself is an exaggeration: If someone is frail, they don't stand much of a chance against a fit person, technique or not. I think we can probably all agree there.
But at the same time, no one is talking about about "ancient ninja secrets and Jedi masters here". I think we need to look at things from more realistic examples. I don't have the patience to search for YouTube clips, but I can give some personal anecdotes:
-The wrestling coach at my high school when I was a teenager was in his 60's and had a "spare tire" around his belly. He wasn't a frail old man, but he certainly was not what one would call "in shape". He also regularly mopped the floor with high school champions during practice, and all with a smug smile on his face. His experience and skill outmatched their athleticism (I'm waiting for someone to make the adage about "old age and treachery" any second now). No, he wasn't a "frail Jedi master", but he was good.
-In 2005, I was hired by people at the World Bank for a fencing demo during a big celebration they were having (I believe it was for "World Day"). The president at the time was Sir James Wolfensohn, who was retiring. His coworkers hired me as a surprise performance for him in honor of his retirement because in 1956 he was an Olympic fencing champion for Australia. I did a fencing demo with a partner during this World Day celebration, but the real demo was when we pulled him down to do a little fencing match with me at the end in front of the hundreds of people in attendance.
The man was 72 at the time, and in my eyes seemed like a tiny, adorable old man who was just so excited to get to hold a sword again. As everyone cheered him on, I was thinking to myself, "I'm going to put on a decent show, but ultimately I have to let the poor old man win." We saluted, and our director called "fence"... and after a second or two of sizing me up, he flew forward with a beautifully executed fleche (a fairly demanding technique requiring excellent timing and speed for a man a quarter of his age), and scored on me before I was even realized what had happened. The hundreds of people watching went crazy with cheers for him, and I was shocked at how easily he hit me (and not to brag, but I'm no slouch when it comes to fencing). That was the first time when it fully dawned on me that his age didn't take away from the fact that once upon a time this man made it all the way to the Olympics, and I, quite frankly, hadn't. At that point I realized I wasn't going to let him win; I was going to put every ounce of fight I had into that match, and I was still going to lose.
I could see through his mask the excited grin on his face, but at the same time I could see in his body language that he realized he was too old to be pulling off physically demanding moves like that anymore, and wasn't able to do that again. So for the rest of the bout, he played a much more conservative game, and it worked. I was faster, younger, and I gave it my all, and he still beat me fair and square. Actually, he *destroyed* me fair and square.
Now, is sport fencing a realistic martial art? No. But let me tell you, had that been a sharp dueling epee or smallsword, I would have been dead before I had time to think.
-About 10 years ago at VAF, we had an epee coach named Mike (who has passed away since then) who most people would have assumed was frail just by looking at him (though they'd be very wrong). He was small, somewhat hunched, and was in his 70's. The man also smoked cigarettes like most humans drink water. Despite that, he regularly *DESTROYED* rated fencers in their 20's. They were faster, but he was better. Much better. The man had been fencing longer than those 20-somethings had been alive, and had actually been in a real duel in his younger days. Perhaps he would have lost if he had to fence person after person for a long period of time, but one-on-one, his skills out-shined his age.
-And here's a historical example: Fabian von Auerswald, a German 16th century wrestling master, and personal instructor to Lord John Frederick, the elector of Saxony, as well has Frederick's sons and the men of his court. The man was throwing around younger men well into his 70's when he finally sat down to write a wrestling treatise.
So while I'll agree with you that the Hollywood portrayal of the ancient master who can fly through the air is a myth, I flat out don't agree with the idea that fitness is the main qualifier of a fighter. It's a vitally important aspect, and any martial artist who doesn't take it seriously is unlikely to ever achieve greatness, but in the end, knowledge, skill, timing and experience are by far the more important elements.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Ian S LaSpina
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | It's a vitally important aspect, and any martial artist who doesn't take it seriously is unlikely to ever achieve greatness, but in the end, knowledge, skill, timing and experience are by far the more important elements. |
This sounds contradictory to me. I think too many of us are considering skill and fitness as mutually exclusive, they are not. I'm merely saying that fitness is the foundation on which skill is built. I agree completely with the first half of your sentence, but don't think the second half can be achieved without fitness. Later in life, after greatness had been attained, perhaps the skill fades slower with time than the level of physical fitness, but I have a hard time believing that a master of the sword neglected his physical training and still became great. Can we agree that fitness is a foundation on which skill rests? I might even go as far as to say that a fit man in his youth who achieved greatness may hold on to that skill as he ages, but no man can achieve greatness in the first place without first having been fit.
Do you think your bout with the 72 year old gentlemen would have been different if you didn't make the mistake of underestimating his capability as an opponent based on his appearance as an old man?
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"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Ian S LaSpina wrote: | | I think too many of us are considering skill and fitness as mutually exclusive, they are not. |
That's not exactly what I mean. What I mean is that we can't look a raw fitness and raw technique, divorced of each other, and say that the fitness has the advantage over skill.
| Quote: | | I'm merely saying that fitness is the foundation on which skill is built. |
I think I can agree with that. That said, I think you can start out unfit, and develop both skill and fitness simultaneously, so I'm not 100% certain if that's true or not. It's true enough that I don't want to split hairs, though.
| Quote: | | but I have a hard time believing that a master of the sword neglected his physical training and still became great. |
Oh, completely agreed, but I don't think anyone was saying that.
| Quote: | | I might even go as far as to say that a fit man in his youth who achieved greatness may hold on to that skill as he ages, but no man can achieve greatness in the dirst place without first having been fit. |
I think I can also agree with that.
| Quote: | | Do you think your bout with the 72 year old gentlemen would have been different if you didn't make the mistake of underestimating his capability as an opponent based on his appearance as an old man? |
*Only* for the first hit, and even then only maybe. Afterwards, he hit me over and over again, and I was giving every ounce of ability I could not to simply be humiliated! My demo partner afterwards flat out said, "Holy crap, he was good! I'm glad you fenced him and not me, because I would have made a fool of myself!"
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Craig Shackleton
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| Posted: Thu 22 Nov, 2012 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going to take a slightly different direction with this conversation, which has been very interesting. What I would like to point out is that as martial skill develops, martial training becomes less useful as a fitness program in and of itself.
One of the things I tell my students is that the goal of martial arts is to be as lazy as possible while fighting. The more efficient we are in our motions the better they work, and the less energy we expend doing them. This means that as we improve, we do less exercise performing the same training. When I first started swordplay, It did not take much training to be a workout for me. Now I find that most of my training isn't really a workout at all in either a strength building or a cardio sense.
However, I think that in some ways this is good; novices that join my classes and out out of shape get a pretty good workout for their fitness level. For someone who wants to get in shape but hates exercise, getting the first steps of fitness doing something fun is a pretty good carrot. If they stick with it, it will get them in good enough shape to support their skill up until the point that they realize they need to do something else to get in better shape, because their fitness is no longer supporting their skill.
The short story is that I don't push new students to do extra fitness training. Either they already do it and are in shape, or they don't, and taking my classes is enough to get started fitness-wise. Once they get more skilled, that changes (although students who get to that point usually already have a fitness program or figure out that they need one before I ever need to tell them).
Ottawa Swordplay
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