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Sean Flynt
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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 Posted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Jack Savante wrote: | | Looks like I rocked the boat there, my apologies, but it is my sincere belief that Windlasses can be as good as any maker with a bit of work. |
This may be your belief, but such a statement is far too broad and is, in my informed opinion, incorrect. Of course, one's opinion of what is "good" varies widely, but the conversation of what is the "same", or is close to the same, should not.
I'm a big fan of Windlass Steelcrafts. I feel that a majority of their items represent a good value and are worth more than the asking price. Having said that, I'm under no illusion that they are well-researched pieces with historical proportions, shapes, and volumes to the shapes of fittings. I also do not fool myself into thinking that their dynamic properties are consistent with historical swords of a similar style/design. Further, it's obvious to me that the material properties and characteristics of the heat-treatment are not on par with higher-end offerings.
Almost all, over 98% in fact, of the offerings have poor shaping in their hilt parts that is not representative of what history has left us. A majority of these problems cannot be fixed to the point of creating an item comparable with the higher-end products the industry as to offer.
| Quote: | | With Hanwei you often get stainless steel fittings which I don't like personally, whereas Windlass use a lot of brass fittings which, while not in vogue are frequently depicted in historical illuminations and art. |
Laten components were certainly used, but most "golden-colored" hilt parts were gold gilt.
| Quote: | | When you pay more money for swords like Albion etc. you get extra details like a nice grip, matte finish and more which come done, rather than having to be done but all those things are doable with a bit of practise and honestly having owned both Windlass and Albion I don't believe are truly worth the extra 1000 they will cost to buy from Albion. |
You get much more than that. The nice grip, matte finish, and other such details are the tiniest part of the extra that one gets from the higher-end items. The real value comes from the research and design, the shaping and volumes of the pieces, the proportions of each individual part, and a whole that is much more representative of history than the lower-end items. The lower-end items are worlds apart from historical samples. They simply are not very similar.
While I understand that these things are not important to some, it's important to acknowledge that they are there. Some, like yourself, may not be able to discern the differences, or perhaps considers them subtle, but for those with a lot of experience in studying these items and those from history, the differences are glaringly obvious and represent a fatal flaw in the lower-end products.
| Quote: | | I say give Windlass a go, I don't think you will be disappointed, though if you are a stickler for the finer touches, you will want to do some DIY. |
I agree that Windlass is absolutely worth the purchase. I've made several purchases from them over the years and, with the proper expectations, their items will present a great deal of satisfaction to their owners. That last part is important, though, because topics like this serve to set the proper expectations with potential new customers. Stating that Windlass pieces can be dressed up and be every bit the sword as a higher-end piece from other makers is simply factually incorrect.
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Christopher Finneman
Location: Sartell Minnesota Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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With anything the saying goes "You get what you pay for".
Granted Windlass is no Arms and Armor nor Albion. You still can get a great working and sometimes looking sword, hammer or what ever you choose.
And besides with a cheaper sword comes the fact is your more inclined to use it, to see what it was used for in cutting slasing chopping whathave you. In ways youd be a lil hesitant to use your higher end stuff.
I have 6 Windlass swords and 4 of thier pole arms. And while the fit and finish isnt all that great, the fun and function doing test cuts and drill is very pleasing.
To me its more off a poor mans sword, and I use poor lightley. Its a weapon if treated and taken care of will serve you for many years of plaesaure, and while then you can slowly tinker with then and make a fancier wrap redo the grip etc ec.
The first sword I got was a windlass and honestly would never trade it for the world. (its an old black prince) its aged nicely and has never given me one bit of trouble.
To each thier own. Youll always find quality problems in either a high end or a low end anything.
Like I tell my friends (if your old enough you may get this) Windlass is like a Datusn 280z they are cool and cheap, and sometimes they will out preform a Vette.
Proudly it stands until the worlds end. The victorious banner of love.
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Matthew P. Adams
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| Posted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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The proportions are a means to an end. At least from my standpoint. Buying from any of the "three A's" (Albion, Arms and Armor, and Angus Trim) or from smiths like Tinker Pierce, Leo Tod. and others like them, ensure you are buying an actual martial weapon. Something that is researched and built to be able, not only to take the punishment of a weapon, but to perform and respond to user input properly. They are built well but not overbuilt.
When a manufacturer like Windlass or Hanwei gets it right, they have either brought in an experienced smith, like the Hanwei Tinker collaboration, or it's just an accident.
If I wanted something to hang on the wall, anything that looks the part would be fine. A $99.99 stainless katana from the home shopping network could be perfect for me. If I want to do some backyard cutting, than any number of companies sell $200.00 or $300.00 swords with carbon steal blades, proper tangs, and fittings that won't fail when cutting bottles or pool noodles will be appropriate. Some of these are plausibly historical looking, some of them are straight out of fiction.
My purpose is to learn the Historic European Martial Arts as they were practiced in the 15th and 16th centuries. That is a pretty specific goal, and one that really has no bearing in the modern lifestyle. Just as these martial traditions have been written and documented, we also have examples of weapons used by men of those times. I have no problem spending the appropriate amount on an accurate replica made to those exacting specifications. To think one could remake an appropriate weapon without doing this research is naive.
Surely windlass has its place, and some of their pieces are "very good for the money", but if you were to compare a windlass sword to an actual medieval sword, the differences are very noticeable.
If you want an excellent costume piece, or a backyard cutter, or a movie replica, than a windlass will be fine. Some of them, as you see in the reviews, are passable martial weapons, but some, won't even feel correct when solo drilling.
The real skinny on Windless, as is the same answer to so many questions, is "depends". It depends on your definition of a "good" sword, it depends on what you want to do with your sword, and it depends on how much you are willing to spend on your sword. One of the major criticisms of the windlass company is inconsistancies. That makes the question all the harder to answer.
I would take one honest weapon over a room full of "almosts" all day long, so my personal answer to what's the real skinny on windlass would be to keep saving. Others my disagree, and if they are using parameters that are closer to yours, than you should listen to them instead.
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Colt Reeves
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| Posted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Matthew Harrington wrote: | | I've only owned three swords in my life since I'm fairly young and a starting collector, but I owned a Windlass 5 Lobe viking sword, it was very "whippy" as some people call it. It wasn't a very well crafted sword over all.... |
And to add to the discussion about how Windlass quality control is all over the place, my Five Lobed Viking is as stiff as a board and I love the thing, especially after I took a wood rasp to the grip and wire-wrapped it. I consider it to be the best cutter I own, at least as of the last time I actually cut anything.
As for the main topic, I have to preface the following with the statement that, with the exception of a few pieces such as an antique German Artillery Saber and random manufacturers, pretty much everything I own is Hanwei and Windlass. I cannot make any meaningful comparisons between them and other manufacturers such as Albion, A&A, etc, aside from what is immediately obvious from comparing the pictures of the products.
That said, I obviously consider Windlass and the odd Hanwei to be worth the price, since I keep buying them. However, like Sean Flynt did, I now buy almost exclusively from Museum Replica's Deal of the Day and every so now and then from Kult of Athena. Generally speaking, as I now have a good idea of what to expect from Windlass (and am still somewhat disappointed with some items), I tend to avoid anything over $150 from them, and if memory serves correctly, nothing I've bought in recent history has exceeded $120 before shipping.
Another point I think has been touched on here that I feel like mentioning is simply this: They are cheap and lower quality when compared to higher brands. This is a boon to some degree. I only have two swords I really take much care of: My German Artillery Saber and most recently my prize from myArmoury.com, the Italian Cut and Thrust. They go on the mantle. The others get tossed under the bed in a pile in scabbards and boxes, which over time means they get dinged and scuffed from bouncing off one another or having something pushed over them. (I built my bed myself and it has a lot of space under it for storage, so under there you can expect everything from swords to boxes of books, and sometimes the cat.)
Basically, I treat them more or less as I feel like because I know they're not worth a whole lot and I don't care if a few minor dings or scratches appear. Ooops, I swung too low and drew sparks off the concrete out back. Big deal, I can always spent a few minutes with a file and sharpen the tip if I want, who cares if it is a little lop-sided?
In short, I believe the technical term for unmodified or otherwise special Windless pieces is "Beater." Even the pieces I've done a little work on don't deserve to be put on a pedestal as far as I'm concerned. They're tools for chopping and stabbing things. I can always buy an Albion or something later if I want something worth putting on display.
"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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I do a lot of work on Windlass Steelcrafts products in my shoppe. Then, years ago, I was a Windlass dealer. Hundreds of them have passed through my hands over the years. I've owned in the area of perhaps 35-40 of their models myself.
I have found that some of their models are excellent deals for the money and prime candidates for customization. Others, not so much. You can make a Windlass sword better than it was before, but you will never attain many of the attributes of more historically-accurate pieces, such as harmonics, balance, weight, edge, fit, proportions, etc...
For the money, you can get a good deal with some Windlass models. Invest a little more money, and you can make it look and function much better. But no amount of money will turn it into an Albion or A&A. The quality is just not there from the get go.
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com
"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Sean Flynt
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Tue 20 Nov, 2012 9:22 am Post subject: |
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I think Peter Johnsson spoke quite well on the issue of quality:
| Quote: | Where do you imagine the reproduction sword industry will be in 10 years? What developments do you anticipate, or would you like to see?
“Something that feels less encouraging is that so many enthusiasts are not willing to accept that quality products will inevitably cost more than cheap versions. Cheap versions mean that compromises are made, corners cut and/or that very cheap labor is used. Despite what marketing makes out, such 'swords' are as a rule very far from the real thing.
It is a common expression among customers that a low cost sword can be 'good value for the money.' It seems customers are still willing to compromise as long as they get a 'good deal'. The urge to collect many swords invite enthusiasts to spend their money on several low quality items, rather than select fewer and better products: going for volume rather than content. I cannot help but think that a pile of horseshit, no matter how big, will never equal a slice of apple pie.
It is perhaps rather arrogant of me to think like this, but today information about swords is abundantly available on the Internet. New titles on historical swordsmanship are also being printed each year. My hope is that the increasing availability of information in time will lead to more educated customers, who are more selective in their choice of swords. By investing in high quality work customers support craftsmen who dedicate their life to the learning of the craft and study of swords. By going the cheaper route buying cheap compromises, customers will actually undermine the existence of quality conscious craftsmen.
All that aside, I think there is room for all levels of quality and all types of products on the market. We must not forget that those producing the really large quantities of so-called 'swords' are aiming at the tourist trade and decorative market by producing ‘Sword Like Objects’ (SLO’s). These products are made and sold in the quantities of thousands upon thousands each year. Most are low cost and cheap in all meanings of the word, but quite a few will demand prices that is comparable to or even exceed the price of quality production swords. It is really just a clever way of selling lengths of steel to a very high price by alluring to the mystique of the sword.
Let us consider this fact: the interest in swords is so strong that thousands of customers each year willingly spend thousands of dollars on products that are obviously very far from true swords. The enormous sales of SLO’s results from massive marketing, exposure in shops, easy availability and, perhaps not least, a low level of awareness among customers.
This is actually very good news. If quality conscious custom smiths and small-scale production companies work together in educating customers, it opens very interesting possibilities. I firmly believe that many of those that buy gaudy stainless-steel decorative swords today would rather own a finely balanced, beautifully crafted sword if they only knew where to get it. If just a few percent of the customers who readily spend their money on expensive and glittering lengths of stainless-steel learn about the alternatives, there is plenty of work for those making quality swords.
As the market for swords matures, we will see more martial arts practitioners emerging that have a well-developed taste in, and a deep knowledge about the European sword. This is another possibility for the makers of swords. Both small scale producers and custom smiths will be able to venture into more unusual expressions of the historical sword. We might also see makers dedicated to the possibilities of the contemporary sword get a wider recognition of their work on the collector market.”
http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/PJ_interview.htm |
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Tue 20 Nov, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I wholeheartedly agree with the PJohnsson's assessment. I would much rather have a small collection of very good quality swords than collection of 10 or more mediocre pieces. That's just me though, and I recognize not everyone has the same priorities or means.
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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David Wilson
Location: In a van down by the river Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Tue 20 Nov, 2012 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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For the longest time I avoided Windlass, having some negative experiences with them in the past (poorly assembled hilts that came loose too easily, lousy blade finishes, overly heavy/poorly balanced, inconsistent tempers, etc). But then I tried a more recent Windlass sword and have come to the conclusion that Windlass has stepped up and is capable of producing a sword of decent quality. In fact, I have that five-lobed Viking that's been mentioned already, and I enjoy it quite a bit -- it handles very well, better than the Del Tin Viking swords MRL used to carry.
Does this mean I recommend Windlass swords? Not necessarily. For instance, if you're a stickler for historical accuracy, you might want to look elsewhere, especially for their ancient period swords (as mentioned). But for an entry level piece that can hold up to some fun cutting, they're fine. Are the comparable to Albion/A&A/Atrim? Certainly not. But they're not meant to be.
David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe
Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
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Ant Mercer
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| Posted: Wed 21 Nov, 2012 4:51 am Post subject: |
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As the OP is from the UK, I’ll wade in as another Brit!
I’ve owned quite a few Windlasses, and they definitely have their pros and cons: They allow for more customisation than a Hanwei, and, as mentioned, their furniture is often mild steel/ brass, which means it can be antiqued/ blued/ blackened unlike Hanwei’s stuff. Unfortunately I think that’s where the pros end.
I now tend to prefer Hanwei’s offerings, if nothing else than for the aesthetics of their blades. I don’t like over-shiny swords, so the last thing I want to do when I receive a brand new sword is to have to spend time removing the lacquer, sharpening (Windlass swords come blunt after all, although TKS below do offer a sharpening service), and then polishing down the blade until I’m happy with it. At least with Hanwei, their blades are pretty acceptable out of the box. At least to me – this is a personal thing, after all.
Another thing to consider over on this side of the pond is availability and price: we don’t really have much access to Windlass swords. In fact the only UK-based retailer I’ve been able to find is The Knight Shop: www.theknightshop.co.uk in Wales. They have a limited stock of Windlass, and, whilst they’re happy to look into sourcing other models, they are themselves limited to what their European supplier can get them. This makes it harder for us to source ‘better’, or newer versions of the same sword.
Heat treatment of their blades can vary from model to model for both makers, so either way it’s a bit of a hit-and-miss situation. At least Hanwei swords are broadly speaking more available over here than Windlass, so sourcing a replacement or finding a cheaper sword from another retailer is easier
And are we really getting value for money in the UK? Don’t forget that retailers need to pass on any shipping/ handling fees they incur to us customers. A case in point would be Windlass’ 15th Century longsword, selling for $170 at KoA. Mark up means we’re being charged £190 over here, or roughly $300. I’m sure there are lots of other factors that affect pricing, but it is a little disheartening to buy something for nearly twice what it’s worth in another country…
As a side note, I have managed to find another site which does sell Windlass swords, but doesn’t advertise them as such, instead choosing to apparently sell them as ‘in the style of’ swords. Case in point is the same sword mentioned above, this time antiqued and sold as ‘A classic German Hand-and-Half Battle Sword of the late XVI Century Style’ for £350/ $560: http://www.worldwidearms.com/popup.cfm?p_n=513461&p_i=513461
…
I think I might have strayed off topic here, but to sum up – I prefer Hanweis in general, but given the right price and availability, a good Windlass model is worthwhile, especially as a custom project.
Cheers,
Ant
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Greg Ballantyne
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| Posted: Wed 21 Nov, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Coming from someone fairly new to sword collecting..... I first got a DSA, then a Legacy Arms Gen 2. While both had the same price, the Gen 2 was a significant step better than the DSA. I've already decided that my next piece will be a step up, to at least an Armor Class or perhaps further to an Albion or similar level. It all depends on the best I can afford when I decide to pull the trigger. While its sometimes difficult to make a judgement as to quality between the lower price point offerings, I think when you step up to the Albion or A&A level the quality is somewhat more assured. My take is that you should try to go for the highest quality level you can manage, realizing that you mostly get what you pay for. While I've experienced some quality variation at lower price points, the impression I get from postings on this website is that at next level price points quality levels are more predictable. I'm looking forward to verifying that myself in the future, but not necessarily including a manufacturer like Windlass into those future plans.....
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