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Waldemar Duszka




Location: Polska
Joined: 25 May 2012

Posts: 57

PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 11:30 am    Post subject: Celtic,openwork spearheads         Reply with quote

This type, Celtic, openwork spearheads.
Looking for data: total length, sleeve length, width and diameter of the sleeve at the entrance, and most importantly no weight.
40-cm long, 7-8 cm long sleeve,8-10 cm-width (the widest part of spear), 20 mm hole at the entrance of the sleeve will be ........ just in time ...... weight ...... I think that between 300-400 grams.



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Scott S.




Location: Central North Carolina
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ibor,

You sure that's Celtic? It looks kind of "Swiss" to me.
Sorry, couldn't resist. Happy
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Graham Shearlaw





Joined: 24 Oct 2011

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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 12:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

it looks to be about 2mm thick, so the holes may be to save weight.
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Kurt Scholz





Joined: 09 Dec 2008

Posts: 390

PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Any chance that these holes could produce a sound while the spear was thrown?
The attached spear shaft seems to have been very thin in comparison to the spearhead, is it a javelin?
Are there any chances that this weapon is from a feature that includes medical tools and high status markers? Usually taken as druid graves with weapons that rather served as iconic symbols.
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Waldemar Duszka




Location: Polska
Joined: 25 May 2012

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PostPosted: Sat 11 Aug, 2012 3:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott, I'm sure this is a Celtic spear, probably from Germany, dated to the period of La Tene.
Kurt, I'm sure this is not a spear to hurl a spear ......... "works", throwing the javelin.
A sound may be able to spend .... and probably only when driving the chariot.
For sure it was a very ornate weapons, prestigious, which was only a warrior of high social standing.
Certainly not the holder of fighting it, "just like that" only weapon was a parade, commemorative.
Military Art of the Celts was a very "specific", packed with symbols of anthropomorphic decoration in general.
This is a subject about which river would you write, write, write
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Waldemar Duszka




Location: Polska
Joined: 25 May 2012

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PostPosted: Sun 12 Aug, 2012 5:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

one more .... and a spear, this type of .....


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Ralph Grinly





Joined: 19 Jan 2011

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PostPosted: Sun 12 Aug, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They're certainly ornate - wish I could see them 'in the flesh" . I suspect something like this was mainly for some sort of "ceremonail' use..not realy as fighting weapons. The blades look far too big, in relation to the sockets. I doubt they would have stood up to being thrust, or thrown.
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Waldemar Duszka




Location: Polska
Joined: 25 May 2012

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PostPosted: Mon 13 Aug, 2012 2:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ralph, I agree with you about the fact that this type of spears were rather battle flags, ceremonial objects.
As for the sleeve is the size of 20 mm - 25 mm, a length of 50-60 cm spear, was the standard from the middle period of La Tene.
This type of lance head is on this figure,(nr. 9,10).
The whole is 60 cm in length and sleeve no more than 25 mm.
Feathers of such lance head byłu very thin, and the whole emphasis during the fight, the shot took over in the middle stall.
Celtic javelin bush had even less, very little from 10 mm to 15 mm 19 mm ..... it was great ....
Weapons in the early Celtic La Tene period was very delicate, finely executed.
Javelins, spears, knives, daggers were very thin and were destined for stinging.



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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

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PostPosted: Mon 13 Aug, 2012 6:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

well theres a line form one of the greek writers which supports the presence of those wavy spearheads although maybe not quite so big,
diodorus siculus said this on the celtic arms... the book seems to hint that the source is possibly "history, v, chapters 25-32 (greek)
Quote:
they brandish spears which are called lanciae which have iron heads a cubit in length and even more, and a little less than 2 palms in bredth: for their swords are not shorter than the spears of others and the heads of their spears are longer than the swords of others, some of these are forged straight, others are twisted and have a spiral form for their whole length so that the blow may not only cut the flesh but tear it to pieces andso the withdrawal ofthe spear may lacerate the wound.


this passage i got from the 'shire archaeology' book called celtic warriors wrtten by W.F and J.N.G ritchie i cant comment on the centry that this guy diodorus siculus made that description this was apparently done during his lifetime in the 1st century BC

one burial with a massive spearhead sems more believable its the burial of connantre in marne, france.

the spearhead is, according to the illustration roughly as wide as the mans skull, the socket also looks fairly beefy according to this regarding the spear shaft there are dotted lines on the picture showing something im not sure if this is just guessing or there really is evidence of the shaft but in a position thatseems perfactly in linewith the spearhead is a much smaller tanged spearhead, more a javellinhead and its theoretically possible its maybe a buttspike for the much larger head if this is true the spear is lessthan the hieght of the man in the grave meaning it, being short and broad bladed makes me think it might hav been used abit like a kind of proto halberd, holding it and using the wide blade to hack and slice like it was a big axe or some other polearm.
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Kurt Scholz





Joined: 09 Dec 2008

Posts: 390

PostPosted: Mon 13 Aug, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ibor D wrote:
Scott, I'm sure this is a Celtic spear, probably from Germany, dated to the period of La Tene.
Kurt, I'm sure this is not a spear to hurl a spear ......... "works", throwing the javelin.
A sound may be able to spend .... and probably only when driving the chariot.
For sure it was a very ornate weapons, prestigious, which was only a warrior of high social standing.
Certainly not the holder of fighting it, "just like that" only weapon was a parade, commemorative.
Military Art of the Celts was a very "specific", packed with symbols of anthropomorphic decoration in general.
This is a subject about which river would you write, write, write


You can hurl object for the sound they create, not their impact. I still miss the context of these serrated spearheads and for example how far away from the head they were in a burial in comparison to ordinary spearheads. If this object is part of a spear shaped signal item it might rise high in order to be seen in the midst of confusion and provide a point for organization.
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Ralph Grinly





Joined: 19 Jan 2011

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Mon 13 Aug, 2012 11:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I doubt these ornate heads were ever meant to be thrown..at least not seriously. However..I *can* imagine they may have been thrown in a symbolic way to signal the start of combat. But I consider this a rather remote possibility..you don't put a lot of work..or relatively valuable metal , into something you are deliberately throwing away.
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

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PostPosted: Thu 16 Aug, 2012 12:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

what about when just waved back and forth,

now i kknow this is hollywood effects talking here as well but, in oliver stones 'alexander' when the phalangites swing their sarissas back and forth at gaugamela, the result is a great and terrifying 'whooshing' noise. of the long poles whipping through the air in unison. sort of the same effect as when you swing a branch covered in leaves through the air..
but i have no idea if such a practice is confirmed in historical sources..

also in my book on the celts, polybius, describing the battle of telamon, also mentions that the celts in battle made a great deal of effort to seem as terrifying as possible

Quote:
for there were countless trumpeters and horn blowers and since the whole army was shouting its war cries at the same time there was such a confucing sound that the noise seemed to come not only from the trumpeters and the soldiers, but also from the countryside which was joining in the echo.

this isnt even mentioning the effect of their great body size and their decorations etc.

not only that one example of celtic trumpet apparently had a wooden 'tongue that as the air rushed through, it rattled the tongue and made a harsh kind of noise.. these trumpets making wierd harsh noises is by the way also mentioned by contemporary writers.

it makes sense that the big celtic spearheads when waved back and forth, could make lots of noise. and add to the din...

but one thing which concerns me about these being battle standards is that on the arc de triomphe in orange (vaucluse, france) there are details of both trumpets, AND standards, these take the form of animals mostly not unlike the roman eagles but instead these take the form of boars and the like.. but the book shows two examples only and im not sure WHAT period these are dated to...


id be curious to see what DATE those ornate spearheads can be identified with, its not impossinble that these spears are a more earlier form of standard, and maybe later this gave way to more 'normal' forms of standards
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Waldemar Duszka




Location: Polska
Joined: 25 May 2012

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PostPosted: Fri 09 Nov, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Forged several spears (La Tene period), such relatively long and the customer wishes .... hardening
From what I know they were not hardened, but I could be wrong, maybe someone knows something about this?
Thanks in advance.
Ibor.
1.Total length javelin 41.5 cm, length of sleeves 26 cm, width of the leaf at its widest point 36 mm, bore 19 mm, weight 270 grams.

2.Spearhead, total length 44 cm, sleeve length 11 cm, width of the leaf at its widest point 37 mm, bore 16 mm, weight 270 grams.
3.Spearhead, total length 41.5 cm, length of sleeves 12 cm, width of the leaf at its widest point 38 mm, bore 19 mm, weight 240 grams.
4.Spearhead, total length 32 cm, sleeves 11 cm, width of the leaf at its widest point 42 mm, weight 240 grams.



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Tom Tasker




Location: USA
Joined: 30 May 2011
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Nov, 2012 2:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott S. wrote:
Ibor,

You sure that's Celtic? It looks kind of "Swiss" to me.
Sorry, couldn't resist. Happy


don't worry i got it!
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Jonathan Blair




Location: Hanover, PA
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Nov, 2012 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott S. wrote:
Ibor,

You sure that's Celtic? It looks kind of "Swiss" to me.
Sorry, couldn't resist. Happy


Might be some kind of sacred relic, 'cause it sure looks "holey" to me.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Sun 11 Nov, 2012 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those spearheads look great! La Tene weapons were usually work-hardened rather than quench-hardened, whether they were made from wrought iron or higher carbon steel. The La Tene smiths knew how to quench-harden steel and sometimes did so on knives and other small tools but apparently they did not know how to temper hardened steel so they did not quench weapons that needed to stand up to heavy use.
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G Ezell
Industry Professional



Location: North Alabama
Joined: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 232

PostPosted: Wed 14 Nov, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ibor D wrote:
Forged several spears (La Tene period), such relatively long and the customer wishes .... hardening
From what I know they were not hardened, but I could be wrong, maybe someone knows something about this?
Thanks in advance.
Ibor..

Very nice work!
The modern man wants his spears hardened... I'd suggest a spring temper, no harder.

" I have found that it is very often the case that if you state some absolute rule of history, there will be an example, however extremely unusual, to break it."
Gabriel Lebec

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