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Pedro Paulo Gaião
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 Posted: Thu 01 Nov, 2018 3:03 pm Post subject: Murad IV's armor |
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So, Murad the IV was the Ottoman Emperor in the first half of 17th century, being contemporary to the 30 Years' War. I mainly wanted to show this portray, for you can see the use of latten and what appears to be pearls in the mail and in the rerebrace.
Also, to ask you if there is any evidence for Islamic armor being completely hidden by dresses (I'm excluding Khazagand/Jazerant mail-cloth armor), for when I read Heath's Armies of Middle Ages he said the thesis of undergarment armor was debunked by the time he wrote his book (1970-80's). Murad's armor is obviously not hidden, but it's an interesting match anyways.
“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Fri 02 Nov, 2018 3:33 am Post subject: Re: Murad IV's armor |
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| Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote: | | I'm excluding Khazagand/Jazerant mail-cloth armor), for when I read Heath's Armies of Middle Ages he said the thesis of undergarment armor was debunked by the time he wrote his book (1970-80's). |
We do have European wills and household accounts which mention such clothing though. If my memory serves me right the Howard household accounts mention the use of mail and red velvet in a single garment.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 12 Nov, 2018 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Murad IV's armor |
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| Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote: |
So, Murad the IV was the Ottoman Emperor in the first half of 17th century, being contemporary to the 30 Years' War. I mainly wanted to show this portray, for you can see the use of latten and what appears to be pearls in the mail and in the rerebrace.
Also, to ask you if there is any evidence for Islamic armor being completely hidden by dresses (I'm excluding Khazagand/Jazerant mail-cloth armor), for when I read Heath's Armies of Middle Ages he said the thesis of undergarment armor was debunked by the time he wrote his book (1970-80's). Murad's armor is obviously not hidden, but it's an interesting match anyways. |
Pedro, take a good look at the painting of Murad, his hauberk IS obviously hidden by his clothing, the painter shows his clothing thrown back to one side which exposes his hauberk. This was not uncommon, when looking at paintings done of Indo-Persian warriors you often see helmets and arm guards but not hauberks or other body armor, what you see instead are long coats.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 14 Nov, 2018 10:43 am Post subject: |
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here is an amusing and interesting anecdote about armor by Usamah Ibn Munqih:
"Salah Al din (Saladin) stood in his place until a part of the army joined him. He then said, "Put on your armor". The majority of those did so while I remained standing by his side. After a while he said again, 'How many times do I have to say "Put on your Armor?'' I said 'Oh my Lord, surely thou does not mean me?' 'Surely' said he. I replied 'By Allah, surely I cannot put on anything more. We are in the early part of the night, and my quilted jerkin (kuzaghand) is furnished with two coats of mail, one on top of the other. As soon as I see the enemy I shall put it on.' Salah al Din did not reply, and we set off.
In the morning we found ourselves near Dumayr. Salah-al Din (Saladin) said to me 'Shall we not dismount and eat something? I am hungry and have been up all night.' I replied 'I shall do what thou orderest.' So we dismounted, and no sooner than we had set foot on the ground, when he said 'Where is thy jerkin?' Upon my order, my attendant produced it. Taking it out from it's leather bag, I took my knife and ripped it at the breast and disclosed the side of the two coats of mail. The jerkin enclosed a Frankish coat of mail extending to the bottom of it, with another coat on top reaching as far as the middle. Both were equipped with the proper linings, felt pads, rough silk, and rabbits hair.'
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Pedro Paulo Gaião
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| Posted: Fri 22 Mar, 2019 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Murad IV's armor |
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| Pieter B. wrote: | | Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote: | | I'm excluding Khazagand/Jazerant mail-cloth armour), for when I read Heath's Armies of Middle Ages he said the thesis of undergarment armour was debunked by the time he wrote his book (1970-80's). |
We do have European wills and household accounts which mention such clothing though. If my memory serves me right the Howard household accounts mention the use of mail and red velvet in a single garment. |
Could you quote the passage or post a link about these accounts?
| Eric S wrote: | | Pedro, take a good look at the painting of Murad, his hauberk IS obviously hidden by his clothing, the painter shows his clothing thrown back to one side which exposes his hauberk. This was not uncommon when looking at paintings done of Indo-Persian warriors you often see helmets and arm guards but not hauberks or other body armour, what you see instead are long coats. |
What exactly is the sense of having a gilt/latten decored mail shirt with pearls and then hiding it over a mantle? You made a point, but I'm curious about this, anyways.
Also: can we consider this coats to be jazerants instead of simply vestments over actually separated armour?
“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
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Pedro Paulo Gaião
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| Posted: Sun 11 Sep, 2022 9:20 am Post subject: |
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Reviving the topic because I found another Sultan in armor:
https://www.sothebys.com/en/articles/from-paris-to-tehran-two-exhibitions-highlight-cross-cultural-relations
It's Sultan Mutafah II, but the depiction says it was made in the 18th century, so I have no idea how accurate it is for an sultan or other top noble of the ottoman empire, since it's a short sleeved hauberk.
But even early 16th century works shows relatively light armor, as in Sukhra (d. 493) depiction in The Persian book of kings, c. 1522
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=nCk_AwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA336&dq=Shah+Tahmasp+Shahnama+tehran+museum+of+contemporary+art&pg=PA332&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Shah%20Tahmasp%20Shahnama%20tehran%20museum%20of%20contemporary%20art&f=false
“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Sun 11 Sep, 2022 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | We do have European wills and household accounts which mention such clothing though. If my memory serves me right the Howard household accounts mention the use of mail and red velvet in a single garment.
Could you quote the passage or post a link about these accounts? |
There is a summary of Thomas Howard's armour collection here
http://www.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs-journal-1.pdf
It does describe a fabric and mail "gestron" on p.28, though not with red velvet.
Anthony Clipsom
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