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Len Parker
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Gary Teuscher
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 Posted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: |
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Can you read that, Len?
And are they talking about Scale or Lammelar?
Anyone know commonly found thickness of Lammelar Lames?
And/or how that compares with the thickness of Brigandine or the plates from a COP?
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Jojo Zerach
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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I think that's one of the difficulties of the original poster's request, to compare and contrast scale vs. lamellar vs. mail, where the reality in western Europe seems to be that lamellar isn't in the picture culturally, and the choice wasn't between scale or mail, since most depictions showing scale show it as an addition to mail, or complementary piece to other reinforcements to mail. So, not scale or mail, but scale and mail is the most common appearance of scale in western Europe. In the Manesse Codex crossbowman's case, we see scale and mail and aketon.
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg84...oomlevel=2
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Len Parker
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| Posted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Gary, nope can't read russian, but I did translate it awhile back and I think this might be mongol. I think this had a backing so I would call it scale. Here is someone's modern version http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=21748
I can't recall anyone posting lamellar thickness. I'll search around and see if I can find any.
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Len Parker
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| Posted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Just thought of two examples of maille failing. Egil Skallagrimsson thrusting his Brynthvari (maille-piercer) through Hrings maille, front and back. Also, Froissart says the Bordeaux spears of the french went through the maille of the Flemmings as though it were made of cloth thrice doubled.
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Jojo Zerach
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| Posted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Len Parker wrote: | | Just thought of two examples of maille failing. Egil Skallagrimsson thrusting his Brynthvari (maille-piercer) through Hrings maille, front and back. Also, Froissart says the Bordeaux spears of the french went through the maille of the Flemmings as though it were made of cloth thrice doubled. |
And on the other side we have Byzantine accounts describing the mail of the Normans as making them "almost, if not completely invulnerable."
It should be obvious that the effectiveness of mail varied dramatically, from near total protection in some cases to being almost worthless in others.
But on average, it must have provided good protection, otherwise they wouldn't have kept making and using it.
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Bartek Strojek
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| Posted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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While mail quality and properties certainly varied, especially against different weapons, licentia poetica and general exaggeration in description is probably very important things too.
In one example, highlighting French steamrolling their opponents, with very colorful comparisons.
On the other hand, magnified and 'supernatural' qualities of Norman mail.
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Timo Nieminen
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| Posted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: |
also regarding lamellar, it is EXTREMELY vulnerable to successive hits by arrows and stuff due to the lacing, one of the guys here (off the top of my head i cant remember who) did a test and found that while lamellar will stop arrowheads fairly easily, the lacing very quickly gets cut up and begins to quickly compromise the structural integrity of the armour by leavinggaps
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Given that there are probably gaps to start with - arms, lower legs, (part of the) face, armpits, back of thighs, etc., I wouldn't call this a great weakness of lamellar. If you're going to be hit by dozens of arrows, you have a problem. Even dozens of arrows, if spread out over the whole armour, won't do too much damage, or open many/large gaps compared to the gaps already there.
| William P wrote: |
its unsurprising considering that alone that most scale and lamellar using cultures later on turned to plated maile around the 14th century onwards in various forms and amounts all the way from russia to egypt to japan.
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Weight (i.e., better protection for less weight), comfort, and better coverage with fewer gaps, made affordable by better metallurgy and metals industry would be enough to drive this.
Some of that transition is also from rawhide lamellar to metal armour.
The western end went to plated mail, but the eastern end went more towards brigandine. Except for the Japanese, who went more for plate (for torso) a little later (guns). While recognising the diversity in 16th century Japanese armour, the "classic" (samurai) armour could be described as plate torso with lamellar neck/shoulders/hips/thighs, and mail on the arms (often with plates) and in the gaps.
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Len Parker
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| Posted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Looking for lamellar thickness has proven more difficult than I thought, oh well, I did see this site showing lamellar scales from different regions(but no thickness) and a good construction guide. http://star-port.org/sca/building.html
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