[Gordon Frye]

Oh, and Thanks Mac, for posting that picture of Eastwood as Josey Wales. I always rather fancied that one.

My Dad was pretty darned indulgent of me, and for my 13th Birthday he bought me a San Marco 2nd Model Dragoon revolver. I was in HEAVEN! Lordie. I still have it of course, and in fact competed with it last April in a Cowboy Action Shoot, even though it's starting to show it's wear (after severaldecades, and-a-half, of shooting!) but it's still accurate. But what I love is my "Walloon", my bobbed down Walker with a Dragoon rammer installed. Much handier, probably all of 3 ounces lighter in the muzzle, LOL! but it's accurate, it's historical, and it's nifty, thus fullfilling all of my needs!

Cheers, and thanks guys for a great thread! Always fun to come home from shooting to read some great comments on the stuff I love to read about!

Gordon

[Michael G. Myers]

Gordon,

The ".50 Blanchard/Worthington Weird, Long" sounds like something to see!

I only have about 20 cases made from my .44-40 brass for the original 1873 FOR loading. The breech seating just doesn't do it for me and I've been procrastinating for years on investing in a proper mould for 11mm FOR. I do a few loadings something similar to your .455 for a few pieces though, one is for an 1873 conversion to .45ACP. Predictably--both for the British pieces and the ugly duckling French Ordnance butcher job--mine are in the 10-15gr range. I even do a smokeless loading for the butchered French Ordnance with 4-5gr of Unique (though not frequently, and the cylinder walls are adequate on mine).

When it comes to gentleman like yourself truly chasing down history in the era of matchlocks, etc., my hat is off to you...and your arcane mysteries are as safe as ever!

Everyone,

It looks like this thread is winding down, but I want to say how much I enjoyed reading the thoughts of everyone involved. My gratitude to Nathan and the rest of the myArmoury staff for allowing discussion of these fine old arms.

One last pic, from the design angle:

[Gordon Frye]

Michael;

Thank you for the kind words, but somehow after going through this thread, and indeed the entire website here, I suspect that I am FAR from the only holder of "arcane" knowledge in these parts, LOL! And anyone who can intelligently discuss the merits of various black and smokeless loads for the 1873 French Ordnance Revolver is into some SERIOUSLY arcane knowledge, my friend!

Ah, the strange and wonderful paths we take when pursuing out dreams, fantasies and amusements. Nice to have a place where we can throw all that knowledge out there to let others enjoy as well, so I'll give yet another thanks to Nathan for allowing this bit of frippery via thie website.

Cheers, and here's to such obscure, but totally enjoyable, information and research!

Gordon

[Nathan Bell]

[Gordon Frye]

Nathan; As I recall, Josey in addition to his brace of Walkers also has a pair of Colt 1860 Army's, and a little Colt 1862 Police as well. Five revolvers is a pretty healthy bit of firepower!

I like your comment on Border Guerrillas as well... brings up the fact that there is a STRONG connection in bloodlines and culture between the American Frontiersmen and the Scots-English Borderers of earlier centuries (which I know you're into, and with a name like "Bell" and all). Lots of the same surnames continue through both eras and places. The whole Kansas-Missouri and Texas-Mexico Border Wars are SO reminiscent of the Reivers of the "Old Border" that it isn't funny. Even the terms like "Regulators" has a continuity from the 15th through the 19th Century that is eerie. I've often wanted to do a pair of photographs to hang side by side, one with guys on horseback in full 16th Century Borderer regalia, the other the same guys on the same horses, in the same poses, dressed and accoutred in full 1840's (or 1860's, or 1880's) Texas Rangers regailia. It would be too cool.

Check out "Albion's Seed by David Hackett, or "The Westering Man" by Bil Gilbert, both go into a lot of really nifty information on the people who formed the Borderers both in Britain, and in America.

Talk about getting off on a tangent though...whew!

Gordon

[Nathan Bell]

[Gordon Frye]

Nathan, to answer the last first, other than the ones I noted above, I sure don't remember any more pistols on Josey. One of the handy things about Hollywood though is the remarkable ability to have not only amazingly numerous shots from one weapon without reloading, but managing to acquire weapons mid-battle that somehow had gone completely unnoticed in the scenes prior to this. I sure wish that I could do that one! Anyway, not having watched the film for a few years (though I sure did watch it a lot of times!) I just don't remember any others. Hopefully someone else here will!

Your friend at UC (hmmm, different UC than the one I'm used to...)sounds like he found a really nifty niche to get immersed in. Seems as though the Border struggles anywhere, any time are alike in many ways. The participants have more in common with one another than their respective countrymen... and in fact neither the English nor Scottish crowns put a whole lot of faith in their own Borderers for that reason! Lots of references to Borderers fighting one another just long enough to show loyalty to their respective armies, and then off they go together to plunder whoever's camp is fullest of choice goodies!

One of the few films out there that seems to actually get into some of the difficulties of these wars, and the horrors perpetrated upon the populations, is "Ride with the Devil", an early Toby McGuire film directed by Ang Lee. GREAT film, if I do say so myself and I'm very happy to say I had a little bit to do with it's production. But anyway, good film if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it on many levels.

Per arms for a Borderer, well there's the rub! As you well know the early basket hilts are available finally (thanks to Vince Evans, and All Saints, etc) but for pistols, OY! I do believe that wheellock pistols were fairly common on the Borders, but you're right too that there would have been plenty of early flint-ignition arms too! Far to good an inexpensive replacement for the wheellock not to have been! Unfortunately there just aren't many fellows out there who make such things (or should I say "make decent ones"). Dale Shinn of course makes both wheellock and snaphaunce, as well as doglock etc. arms, but they aren't in any way shape or form to be considered inexpensive. Not bad considering, though! As far as I know, there isn't a serviceable wheellock out there on the general market right now that I could recommend. I understand that The Rifle Shoppe has lock kits that are serviceable, but that's also not confirmed, and there are lots of dissenting voices on that issue. (He also has some snaphaunce kits in stock that have been put together that you might wish to check out, but the above codicil still holds).

I think the closest thing to an available, and serviceable, AND affordable pistol for the late-16th/early-17th Century era is the India-made doglock pistol offered by Middlesex Trading Co., Royalist Arms and Discriminating General (the latter two are in Canada so offer the piece with an undrilled touch-hole, thus it's not a firearm and can be shipped anywhere) at about $300. I have yet to really check them out, but I have reports that they are serviceable and throw a good spark. They aren't "Right" for the period, not having real proveniance until around 1615 or so, but they are about as close as you can get to a snaphaunce and still not pay an arm and a leg!

Good luck though on getting a Hobbler though! You're right, they ARE a major part of the equipment list for a Borderer though... in just about any time in history, at any place!

Cheers,

Gordon

[Nathan Bell]

Hi Gordon,

Sounds as if I may have to put a second mortgage on my kidneys to get a decent brace of appropriate pistols for a Reiver get up, though still cheaper than buying the hobbler! Maybe when I get it together, might just go with a latch---Fraser seems to indicate this may have been prefferred by the Scots reivers, anyhow at least in the early periods?

As to my delusion of appearing guns in Josey Wales' possession--well I reckon I'll just have to watch it again real soon, just to set myself straight, of course

Thought I would plug my acquaintence's current book. This is his first one, and he has one in press. Of course, he also has a number of articles on the subject, (being a professor and all it's sorta required to publish or perish?). I must admit I have not really dug into the articles on the subject, I just get the Reader's Digest version from the source if I want to.

Here's the book:

Missouri's Confederate: Claiborne Fox Jackson and the Creation of Southern Identity in the Border West (Missouri Biography Series) by Christopher Phillips

[Thomas McDonald]

I suppose this my excuse now to finally get Josey of dvd .....

Funny how VHS just doesn't cut the mustard root bullet poltice anymore ;-) Mac

[Thomas McDonald]

Checkout this 'lil bugger that's coming up on auction, at Bonhams ....

A Rare Irish Four-Barrel All-Steel Percussion Pistol

by W.m & J.n Rigby, Dublin, circa 1829
with 1 1/2 in turn-off barrels numbered respectively from '5' to '8', signed butt with characteristic foliate scroll and border engraving, engraved hammer with rotating nose, folding trigger, and pommel pierced to form a lanyard ring 5 1/2 in.
Condition: Very Good. Dark grey patina overall and areas of light surface pitting//See D.H.L. Back, Messrs Rigby 1760-1869, p.50, plate 19
http://www.butterfields.com/areas/arms/7595a/...a-2573.htm

[Gordon Frye]

WAY Cool! Just the thing to slip into your waistcoat pocket for a walk through the misty streets of London... ought to do the trick today, too (though you'd go to jail for a long time for it, LOL!)

Gordon

[Douglas G.]

Well Fellers, all this talk about swell old firearms got me all
sweaty for a new shooter, and so I blew my Christmas bonus
on a Pedersoli replica of an 1857 Mauser. I haven't had any
chance to touch it off yet, but since it came with absolutely no
tech data I have no idea what size powder charge it takes,
and for good measure I don't have a worm, cleaning jag, nipple
wrench or any of the impedimenta necessary for black powder
anymore. One thing that leaps out in comparison to the 1861
Springfield I had way back is that the sights are far better, useful
even!

Best,
Doug G.

[Douglas G.]

And YEE HAW!! Got a worm, jag, minies and a do everything musket tool and then went out to
Tri- County which is the best range in the northern Willamette Valley and popped my '57 Mauser!
Rainy and crappy best describes the day, but from the sheds on the Black Powder range I had a
swell day of shooting, and with the Pedersoli recommended 48gr charge had some pretty good
groups at 100 yds. I went to a full 60gr at 200 and got very satifactory results as well, in spite of
mud tracks going out to the butts and back. Now the bad part. Clean up after a black powder
shoot is still every bit as bad as I remember.

Best wishes for the New Year!
Doug G.

[Michael G. Myers]

[Ben Sweet]

Here is my Dads (I forgot what year it is stamped, I think 1861) Remington "p" that he picked up while on his trip back to New York and other eastern states, handling this antique on Thanksgiving day was like handling my antique rapier...it just feels right...I own 3 modern 1858 Remingtons and they look like my Dad's Remington but they just don't feel in the hand like his, maybe it's that knowing of the real deal and the history behind it that makes such a difference just like between a modern day made sword and an antique of the same type...
The 2 below are both Uberti made 1858 Remingtons with the one on the right sporting an R&D cylinder where I can now shoot 45 Colts instead of black powder