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William P
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 Posted: Thu 28 Jun, 2012 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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ive manged to find more info the japanese mace at least via a guy called dean eichler
http://www.korisuya.com/ thats the shop he runs selling shuriken and oher unusual weapons, including the japanese war mallet called the otsuchi
he also has a youtube channel and seems to have a quite large collection of various ninjutsu grade weapons some replicas, some antique, all in all he seems to know a fair bit about the unusual weapons of japan.
| Quote: | | "the proper name would actually be arare bo, arare means hail stones, it's a short variant of a tetsubo or kansai bo. usually you make it by studding a metal pipe and placing it on a piece of wood and then attaching a second pipe to serve as a handle and running a cord from the bottom. the techniques for using it are the same basically as a jutte, tessen etc and it's called naeshijutsu" |
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=ZzIXkFec0...navlinks_s you can read some pats of this book for free and the pages you can see cover he araebo although is covered in maybe 6-8 lines.
and i have no idea HOW he knows this, but he also told me those ararebo you have there in pictures are modern, chinese made fakes. by fakes, i think he means these are modern replicas and not true antiques.
where did you find those ararebo?
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sat 30 Jun, 2012 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| William P wrote: | ive manged to find more info the japanese mace at least via a guy called dean eichler
http://www.korisuya.com/ thats the shop he runs selling shuriken and oher unusual weapons, including the japanese war mallet called the otsuchi
he also has a youtube channel and seems to have a quite large collection of various ninjutsu grade weapons some replicas, some antique, all in all he seems to know a fair bit about the unusual weapons of japan.
and i have no idea HOW he knows this, but he also told me those ararebo you have there in pictures are modern, chinese made fakes. by fakes, i think he means these are modern replicas and not true antiques.
where did you find those ararebo? |
William, I am aware of this site, have you looked at it? Not much there, he takes supposed ninja scrolls and sells copies of the weapons etc shown in the scrolls. Now if he knows so much he would certainly know that Japan makes some of the best fake/replica Japanese weapons and armor in the world as the Japanese have the advantage of access to museums and books etc showing these items, I mean that you can not make a really believable fake without seeing the real thing. China makes lots of fakes but for the most part theirs are easily spotted by anyone with some experience. The Japanese have been faking signatures on swords for centuries and each period copied the weapons and armor from previous periods to the point that even museums and experts can sometimes only guess if a certain item is old, very old or ancient.
Many purists consider Japanese armor and weapons made in the Edo period to be fakes, as in copies of armor and weapons used during the periods of warfare, in fact the majority of authentic Japanese armor and weapons seen in museums and private collections are from the Edo period and these Edo period swords, armors, spears, bows, guns etc were copies of items used in war but they were for the most part not used in war but for displays of status and power or armory items stored for future use. The Japanese have been manufacturing high class fake Japanese armor for years, in fact some of these fakes are now sought by collectors as art works in their own right due to the high level of workmanship that went into their creation.
The two ararebo I have shown were sold in Japan several years apart, I have only seen one other for sale and that was several years before these two and all three were much different than each other. Could they be deliberate fakes? Its possible of course but if so then they are the work of a master craftsman with an attention to detail far beyond the ability of most people. I have watched Japanese armor and weapons auctions in Japan, ebay and what dealers have for sale for many years, I keep pictures of rare and unusual items for research and to compare with other items, this helps with spotting fakes.
Lately I have seen many fake jutte being sold, some very easy to spot, as in absolutely no signs of age and some with characteristics not seen in known examples of authentic antique jutte.....but lately I have been seeing some really fantastically well made fake jutte that look aged and are certainly patterned after antique jutte. These fakes are scary and now this has progressed into other weapons as well. One thing I have noticed is that these items are usually made and sold in groups, usually with slight differences but similar to each other. Recently there was a flood of ancient looking Chinese/Korean multi barreled handgonnes for sale, suddenly they were for sale from several sources and then the supply ran out. I see the same pattern for other items, a group of some rare weapons shows up, slowly bled into to market and then no more for awhile.
I will give you an example of how hard it is to determine if something is real or fake. Sellers of antiques in Japan often do not speak English making it hard to ask questions. Here is an example of a rare teppo jutte that was for sale recently in Japan, usually there would not be this many detailed images, this is what you would have available to make a decision, what do you think?
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William P
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| Posted: Sat 30 Jun, 2012 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | William P wrote: | ive manged to find more info the japanese mace at least via a guy called dean eichler
http://www.korisuya.com/ thats the shop he runs selling shuriken and oher unusual weapons, including the japanese war mallet called the otsuchi
he also has a youtube channel and seems to have a quite large collection of various ninjutsu grade weapons some replicas, some antique, all in all he seems to know a fair bit about the unusual weapons of japan.
and i have no idea HOW he knows this, but he also told me those ararebo you have there in pictures are modern, chinese made fakes. by fakes, i think he means these are modern replicas and not true antiques.
where did you find those ararebo? |
William, I am aware of this site, have you looked at it? Not much there, he takes supposed ninja scrolls and sells copies of the weapons etc shown in the scrolls. Now if he knows so much he would certainly know that Japan makes some of the best fake/replica Japanese weapons and armor in the world as the Japanese have the advantage of access to museums and books etc showing these items, I mean that you can not make a really believable fake without seeing the real thing. China makes lots of fakes but for the most part theirs are easily spotted by anyone with some experience. The Japanese have been faking signatures on swords for centuries and each period copied the weapons and armor from previous periods to the point that even museums and experts can sometimes only guess if a certain item is old, very old or ancient.
Many purists consider Japanese armor and weapons made in the Edo period to be fakes, as in copies of armor and weapons used during the periods of warfare, in fact the majority of authentic Japanese armor and weapons seen in museums and private collections are from the Edo period and these Edo period swords, armors, spears, bows, guns etc were copies of items used in war but they were for the most part not used in war but for displays of status and power or armory items stored for future use. The Japanese have been manufacturing high class fake Japanese armor for years, in fact some of these fakes are now sought by collectors as art works in their own right due to the high level of workmanship that went into their creation.
The two ararebo I have shown were sold in Japan several years apart, I have only seen one other for sale and that was several years before these two and all three were much different than each other. Could they be deliberate fakes? Its possible of course but if so then they are the work of a master craftsman with an attention to detail far beyond the ability of most people. I have watched Japanese armor and weapons auctions in Japan, ebay and what dealers have for sale for many years, I keep pictures of rare and unusual items for research and to compare with other items, this helps with spotting fakes.
Lately I have seen many fake jutte being sold, some very easy to spot, as in absolutely no signs of age and some with characteristics not seen in known examples of authentic antique jutte.....but lately I have been seeing some really fantastically well made fake jutte that look aged and are certainly patterned after antique jutte. These fakes are scary and now this has progressed into other weapons as well. One thing I have noticed is that these items are usually made and sold in groups, usually with slight differences but similar to each other. Recently there was a flood of ancient looking Chinese/Korean multi barreled handgonnes for sale, suddenly they were for sale from several sources and then the supply ran out. I see the same pattern for other items, a group of some rare weapons shows up, slowly bled into to market and then no more for awhile.
I will give you an example of how hard it is to determine if something is real or fake. Sellers of antiques in Japan often do not speak English making it hard to ask questions. Here is an example of a rare teppo jutte that was for sale recently in Japan, usually there would not be this many detailed images, this is what you would have available to make a decision, what do you think?
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he also has a youtube channel but im willing to bet you aware of that as well (although he spends most of his time fighting over fake pracitioners of the martial arts and delving into political nonsense as oppposed to showing off weapons and stuff like he used to do alot more of. but he has shown off his collection (or at least part of it)
but lets not get bogged down in that..
im willing to bet he knows about that trend of edo period artisans copying earlier styles of armourr and weapons making them technically 'fakes' since he seems to deal wih japanese arms and armour makers a lot
when you mention i like that i cant hlp bu be reminded of he pracice of victorian craftsmen receating vaious euopean artefacts.
like thee thread on that suit of victorian made composite plate armour.
as for the jutte, i don know squat abou telling the difference between real/ fake weapons and armour especialy for japan. so me expressing my opinion really doesnt say much but my gut feeling is that it might be real.
funnily enough even im aware of one such example of edo period armourers 'modernising' older weapons ad armou , in particular he making of O-yoroi and adding many parts hat O yoroi didnt originally have, like the face mask and throat protecor, if im not misaken the original o-yoroi never had those
i even head of ,during the bakamatsu, supporters of he emporer wearing chokuo as a symbol ofsupporing the old emporer (or something slong those lines)
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