[D. Phillip Caron]

Is there a basic difference between a morningstar and a mace which I can not see, or is it an English name for a mace?

[Eric G.]

I think that a morning star is a mace or club-type weapon with spikes. I think that the mace that Oakeshott classifies as an M3 can be called a morning star, as can others.

[D. Phillip Caron]

I have figured a way to answer my own question. According to wikipedia a morningstar has spikes whereas a mace does not. This makes a mace a much more "handsome" weapon, IMO.

[Jean-Carle Hudon]

I always thought the morning star was the ball and chain version of the mace. I know morning stars are illegal in Canada, and I don't think that a straightforward mace is what is being considered by the Criminal Code. None of this is gospel, nor Wikipedia for that matter, just my understanding of the term.

[D. Phillip Caron]

I have found a reference at Extremely-sharp.com (para. FLAILS) which states that the Morningstar is the ball with spikes. It may be attached to a handle as a mace, or attached to a chain as a flail.

[Daniel Wallace]

i've always associated a 'morning star' as part of the flail family. actually anything that's attached to a pole arm by chain or rope i consider a type of flail. even nun-chucks

well that was my personal assumption - learn something new everyday.

but you know i've also heard the term 'holy water sprinkler' associated with a morning star (with the ball and chain), does that also classify another weapon or just a generic term for the weapon meant to give it some bravado?

[D. Phillip Caron]

The reference above stated that there was "miss understanding" about the term morningstar. It might well be one of those stiuations like; a car is an automobile, but so is a Chevy or a hotrod. A number of terms for the same object.

[Marik C.S.]

The term holy-water sprinkler may also refer to a mace not so much to a flail.
The clerical item is called an Aspergillum and looks like this:



And not only is the shape similar to a mace, it is also my understanding that since men of the cloth were not allowed to shed blood - at least as far as I know, though that may be a legend - they tended to use maces and similar devices to crush. Somehow the blood that flows from a cracked skull is different to the blood from a cut body.
Never mind the details, the holy-water sprinkler was called thus as a rather cruel pun.

[D. Phillip Caron]

I have also heard of a macelet, and the associated drawing showed an iron ball with spikes on a chain with a wooden handle. Seems the above reference would call this a morningstar flail.
At the catholic High School I attended the story was that clerics were not allowed edged weapons soone dreamed up the mace. Might be some fair truth in it if the church actually was responsble for bringing about knighthood and chivelry to bring order to the Dark Ages.

[Eric G.]

[D. Phillip Caron]

Thank you for posting that Eric. I have long question the take my sources provided in my early studies of history. I have no difficulty is accepting what this document has to say.

[James Head]

Eric, thanks for posting that quote from Oakeshott.

Bishop Odo was most likely shown wielding a mace as a symbol of authority, especially since Duke William is holding one as well.

The idea that clergy didn't fight with swords is silly for so many reasons, one of which is that MS I.33 (the oldest surviving manual on European Swordsmanship) depicts a priest as the master sword instructor.

Also, see this big thread from a few years back. Lots of the same stuff being covered, with better info...

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12645

[D. Phillip Caron]

James, thank you for bringing that link. Had I known it was there this one would not be here.

[Sander Alsters]

On youtube there is also a guy from a tv show, dont know his name, im sorry, that explains the weapons. weapons of the middle ages, or medieval weapons its called. Ow heck, ill try to find a link. Its in this show,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxZ8iFtSvss&am...ata_player

Offcourse its not all acurate but I enjoyd it nontheless!

[Chad Arnow]

Stone's Glossary (which uses Holy Water Sprinkler and Morningstar as synonyms) defines them this way: "A shafted weapon with an enlarged head of wood or iron studded with spikes. It was a common peasant weapon for several hundred years in Europe. It was also used in the East though never as common there."

Snook's book on halberds and other European polearms states that the morgenstern (german term) and holy water sprinkler were but 2 names given to spiked clubs of varying kinds.

Oakeshott's European Weapons And Armour also makes the Holy-water sprinkler = morgenstern/morning star equation, calling them a "long-hafted spiked club, of varied form." He notes the Henry VIII example.

Waldman's polearm book devotes a whole chapter to "The Morgenstern Group." The first paragraph states:

[Thomas R.]

[James Head]

[Thomas R.]

Hi James,

this would be hilarious! Well, Hans Talhoffer (* ca. 1420; † ca. 1490) obviously knew the handy flail with spikes. It's not a ball, but spikey enought for my tastes. Have a look:

Best wishes,
Thomas

[James Head]

Hi Thomas.

The weapon in the lower right hand corner is most definitely a two handed 'war flail' like what the Hussites and other peasant armies used.

First, and most importantly, none of the objects illustrated on this page of Talhoffer's 'Thott' manuscript are anywhere close to being to scale. You have very large weapons placed next to much smaller hooks and hinges and straps etc...

Taking a closer look at the war flail, you can see a roundel located down by the lower third of the weapon's handle, which is a method of hand protection consistent with other pole weapons of the time. Also, the flail head is the same shape and size as other two handed flails (just look at Paulus Hector Mair and Jakob Sutor). FInally (and this is the best evidence that you are looking at a big weapon) there is only ONE free chain link connecting the head to the staff. This short style of band creates a powerful snapping motion, nothing like the long wavy chains of the single handed version (which I don't think existed at this time anyhow).

P.S. The object on the left hand side is a little more mysterious, but I'm pretty confident it some type of scourge or cat-o-nine tails: leather thongs with nasty thorns woven into the ends.

[Sean Flynt]

In German, the spiked ball-and-chain weapon is distinguished from the morgenstern (club) by the addition of "ketten"--i.e., "kettenmorgernstern". So, although it's correct to call both "morgenstern," there's a huge difference in their use so it's helpful to be specific.