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Angus Trim
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 Posted: Mon 08 Nov, 2004 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | Gus,
First; I think you're getting a bit defensive with some of your remarks when there's no need. While this did seem to be an Atrim v. Albion thread initially I think it's moved way beyond that. As for this remark: "I don't know where this stuff comes from that I'm trying to better the designs of the medieval swordsmiths." If this is rebutal to my comment of: "IMHO makers who claim to be creating improved designs are simply re-inventing the wheel by the process of reverse engineering." this wasn't directed at you. I think we can both think of a few makers who've made such claims. I've never said that you were one of them. This is certainly not a Atrim v. Albion thread, if it was it wouldn't be here.
Second; I think the gist of your post is right on the money. It's exactly what we've been talking about, putting products and philosophies in their proper context. Putting any product or maker of same into a rigid "box" is a bit of a slippery slope to be sure. I also completely agree with you on the perceived cutting performance issue. I strongly feel that 99% of the time unsatisfactory cutting performance is an operator error issue not one of design. You've mentioned three specific makers in your post. IMHO if you can't cut successfully using a sword made by any of them then you simply need more practice.
Still waiting on that review sword  |
No, my thoughts on "where it came from" had nothing to do with you. We've had too many conversations over the last five years for me to know when you're digging at me, and when your not........
It was more of a general comment, I've seen it a bit over the last three or four months, here and at SFI. Its one of those things that finally needed to be expressed...........
This is an ego driven industry to some degree, and mine is as large as many. I make pretty good swords........ But so does Craig, and so do the folk at Albion..........
Part of the current problem {and I'm not sure its widespread just because a few people express it} is that there's a difference in how certain swords react to certain targets. The 2L pop bottle for one thing isn't as easy a target as some folks think it should be. Yeah, once you've cut a bunch of them, they're easy, but it takes two things to do well with any given sword, excellent edge alignment, and pretty good speed. If you have that, then the sword doesn't have to be razor sharp.
You kinda have to learn the "rules of the game". Each target type needs a bit different technique. Each can teach you something else, and none of the are all that "realistic". Stokesies {milk jugs}, follow thru, can cut with a baseball bat. 2L bottles, moderately sharp sword, plenty of velocity, great edge alignment, cut close to tip. Bugei wara, soaked 48 hrs, swordlike object, decent edge alignment, follow thru, cut anywhere on blade. Mugen Dachi mats, soaked six hours, relatively sharp sword, decent harmonics, good edge alignment, decent speed, follow thru, cut from cop to tip. Thin wall tubes, free standing, relatively sharp sword, great edge alignment, decent speed, follow thru, cut from cop to tip. Heavy wall tubes, free standing, relatively heavy duty sword, sharp, great edge alignment, good speed, follow thru, cut close to cop, 1/4 inch plywood, sword doesn't need to be sharp though good harmonics help, edge alignment helps, good speed, decent power and follow thru, cut close to cop..... etc...........Each target for the best success has slightly different rules. Good for cutting and target practice, not all that good for martial arts practice, once certain forms are learned.......
Folks read about other people cutting, and/ or see the photos of the cutting parties, then try it themselves without any prior experience. Then things don't work for them {at times}, and its the sword's fault. Sometimes it is, I know I'll take a sword back and fix it if its not cutting for someone when they try the first time. Of the five times in the last 2 years I've taken something back because someone couldn't cut with it, it really could have been sharper twice. It does happen..........
In the last two years, I've cut 2L bottles with an antique saber {some two years ago}, antique dao, antique tulwar, and antique kat. All were able to cut said bottles easily, and "take the second cut". But all four had to follow the same rules outlined above, mainly excellent edge alignment, and some velocity. Miss the edge alignment, and the bottle gets Babe Ruthed off the stand. Depending on type of sword, and "mission" of sword, most swords should cut these bottles {swords meant for heavy armor, or dedicated thrusting swords might not do well}. Generally speaking, most will, even if the owner cannot do it on first getting it. People need to learn to "bond" with their swords a bit before trying this stuff on tougher targets {like the 2L bottle can be at times}, and give the sword a fair chance. If the sword won't cut for you, talk to the manufacturer, most of us will take it back and look it over, even if there's nothing wrong with it..........
Back when Josh had Allsaints, twice he swapped swords for prospective buyers if they couldn't "bond" with a sword. Sh** happens. I think that Mike Sigman has done the same at times, after all, a happy customer makes us happy too.
Yep, I just ranted, but I've seen too many decent swords get a bad rap, regardless of maker.........
I like to see new people cut, but it does take a little learning to get acquainted with the tool, and it takes a bit of learning to use the tool. I also like to see martially training folks learn to cut too, but with the understanding you're only going to be learning so much...........
Auld Dawg
swords are fun
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Mon 08 Nov, 2004 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No, my thoughts on "where it came from" had nothing to do with you. We've had too many conversations over the last five years for me to know when you're digging at me, and when your not........ |
Good, but I just wanted to be sure.
Gus,
I think you've brought up another good point concerning cutting mediums. I absolutely agree that just about any cutting medium will tell you something. I think we established that years ago. I've cut all the stuff you have, bottles, jugs, plywood, mats, cardboard tubes, etc. (I think I may be one up on you though. Remember the dumpster?) All of those mediums told me something valuable. The problem arrises when people start to think that any one of those mediums is in itself a definitive test of the swords abilities. They're not. If anything they're a test of the users ability more than the sword.
I think a lot of customers would be happier if, after botching a cut, they would think "What am I doing wrong?" rather than "What's wrong with the sword?"
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Gordon Clark
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| Angus Trim wrote: | | .... Depending on type of sword, and "mission" of sword, most swords should cut these bottles {swords meant for heavy armor, or dedicated thrusting swords might not do well}. Generally speaking, most will, even if the owner cannot do it on first getting it. |
There are two more important points -
- Not all swords are supposed to do the things some may want them to do.
- Especially in the hands of someone who is not trained in their use.
I have an A&A custom Type XX that is a good example (picture below) - I just can't get it to "cut" very well -
but when i say cut, I mean water filled milk jugs. It cuts them, but not as well as other sword i own. Now the other swords have flatter blades - they are lighter - they are made to cut light targets better. that does not make my Type XX a "bad sword", or even a "bad cutter" - it is made to take on an armored opponent, and I get enjoyment out of knowing that - even if i won't be using it on one.
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Kenneth Enroth
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| Posted: Tue 09 Nov, 2004 4:18 am Post subject: |
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You know that blowgun that Cold Steel sells, on the DVD they cut 1/4 inch plywood with it. The results with that piece of plastic were at least equal to the swords.
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Sam Barris
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| Posted: Wed 10 Nov, 2004 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Since it seems that this thread is exhausted, I wanted to take a moment to add a closing note, since it appeared for a moment that a few feathers might have been ruffled.
There was, in the first few days of discussion, a comment comparing Albion to Angus Trim. A few days later I posted a question asking whether a modern smith should try to emulate historical designs or make swords geared to more modern cutting exercises. My question, which brought a rather pointed response, was in no way referring to any specific swordsmiths, nor an attempt to classify or compare said swordsmiths. My question was asked in a purely general and philosophical sense. It is similar to a conversation that I had with my fencing coach back in college (on the epee vs rapier question), another time with a sensei (who taught primarily tournament-specific moves so we could win trophies) and on several occasions with friends (who represent a broad spectrum of ideas). Despite certain leanings, my own feelings are somewhat ambiguous on the topic. I do prefer a historically accurate design, but on the other hand, I can't help but get exited about certain new directions the craft has been taken in.
If there was any confusion regarding the intent of my question, or any offence taken by it, I apologize.
I just wanted to clarify that.
Pax,
Sam Barris
"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Wed 10 Nov, 2004 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Relax Sam. It's all good.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| Gordon Clark wrote: | | Angus Trim wrote: | | .... Depending on type of sword, and "mission" of sword, most swords should cut these bottles {swords meant for heavy armor, or dedicated thrusting swords might not do well}. Generally speaking, most will, even if the owner cannot do it on first getting it. |
There are two more important points -
- Not all swords are supposed to do the things some may want them to do.
- Especially in the hands of someone who is not trained in their use.
I have an A&A custom Type XX that is a good example (picture below) - I just can't get it to "cut" very well -
but when i say cut, I mean water filled milk jugs. It cuts them, but not as well as other sword i own. Now the other swords have flatter blades - they are lighter - they are made to cut light targets better. that does not make my Type XX a "bad sword", or even a "bad cutter" - it is made to take on an armored opponent, and I get enjoyment out of knowing that - even if i won't be using it on one. |
Rackin Frack it! I suppose that means you STILL don't want to part with that sword? (Russ breaking one of the commandments every time he thinks about that type XX)
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Shane Allee
Industry Professional
Location: South Bend, IN Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 506
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| Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Considered posting a number of times and didn't, but since it is back up again I will.
My thoughts are that people still holding onto the past to an extent. Five plus years ago the norm for production swords was much different, and we have the US production makers to thank for that. As they (A&A, Albion, & Gus) really started taking off and growing they started introducing us to swords that performed very differently then what most of us had. The standard has changed at this point though, the US production swords are much more the norm for collectors. Now to find major differences, ones that average collector will be able to perceive, you have to compare one of the US makers to something that is more of a step down. It seems that people still want to find large amounts of differences, so some seem to over exaggerate some of the more minute differences between companies like A&A, Albion, and Gus.
One thing I see as well is people will want a "performance cutting sword" and they will pick out a place to get one from, but spend little time considering the type of sword. With what I was saying above, that difference isn't going to make nearly as big of difference as the type of sword you pick. If what you are after is simply sword to make cuts to wow people, start looking for types that are more heavily designed for cutting. The other major aspect would be to find a type that is well suited to yourself. For me, longsword isn't my thing...beyond just looks even. So it really doesn't make since for me to go out and get a cutting sword that isn't a single hander. Much more important that which US production company you buy from is knowing yourself and finding out what types of swords work well for you. This is something the internet cant tell you, the hands on experience is needed. Just one of the reasons it is so important to have the sword gatherings and put the swords out there in your hands.
The numbers game.... Numbers can play a part in initially getting an impression of what a sword will be like when it is not on hand, but in recent years it has been taken to an extreme by some. I don't know how many times I recall hearing someone spout off they need to have a point of balance "X" inches in front of the guard. Doesn't matter the type of sword to them, they have to have the POB right there. Most of us realize the problems with this stance. The POB is shows no indication of any other factors involved. Example a 5 pound sword can have the same balance point as a two pound. Of course then there is the factor of one sword type might be great with a POB at "X" distance, but a different type would be crap with it placed there. If we zoom out we see that our number theories also don't work well when we apply it to anything that isn't a european straight swords, for that matter ancient swords of europe don't work either. Organic based hilts, both ethnographic and ancient can not be applied to some peoples rules. A recent La Tene celtic sword I finished had a POB that was well outside of what some would consider their comfort range, does it matter. NO, because it was a light weight cutting sword that had most of the hilt made from horn. It handled like a dream, exactly how the originals would have. Another clear way to mess up the equation is to start curving the blade. Prior to Rick Barrett's sword seminar this spring we had several blade blanks with the exact same length, weight, and tapers, then we precurved them adding various amounts of curve in different places. This way to show and give a variety to the students. By varying those two factors the blades characteristics changed dramatically. There is no magic equations to give us the perfect measurements for two simple reasons. One there is no equation that truly represents the complexities of the sword. Second there is no perfect sword.
If you stay within the range of well made swords you aren't going to find major differences. So if you find yourself obsessing over which sword might cut 1/4 deeper in plywood or which one would have to abuse more before it expires, then maybe it is time to step back and remember what brought you into the community in the first place. If you stay within the range of well made swords you aren't going to find major differences.
Shane
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Shane Allee wrote: | A recent La Tene celtic sword I finished had a POB that was well outside of what some would consider their comfort range...
Shane |
Hi Shane...
Got any pictures of this sword... sure would like to see it.
Maybe it is just me but I would not want a collection where all (or most) of my swords balanced the same (or even felt similar)... even if it was the "ideal" proportions. I like the fact that different swords feel different and act differently. I also like the experience of how the feeling changes from holding it and actually using it.
I have a Godfred Viking sword that has lots of distal and profile taper with heavy hilt fittings made even heavier by my addition of silver binding. And I have an MRL River Scheldt Viking I stole from someone off ebay that has little profile and no distal taper with a thin wooden grip (I am about to make even lighter by replacing it with horn). Both these are Viking swords, both are within the range of what was made in Viking times but each has a totally different feel... "Viva La Differance!"
ks
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Gordon Clark
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| Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: | | Gordon Clark wrote: | | Angus Trim wrote: | | .... Depending on type of sword, and "mission" of sword, most swords should cut these bottles {swords meant for heavy armor, or dedicated thrusting swords might not do well}. Generally speaking, most will, even if the owner cannot do it on first getting it. |
There are two more important points -
- Not all swords are supposed to do the things some may want them to do.
- Especially in the hands of someone who is not trained in their use.
I have an A&A custom Type XX that is a good example (picture below) - I just can't get it to "cut" very well -
but when i say cut, I mean water filled milk jugs. It cuts them, but not as well as other sword i own. Now the other swords have flatter blades - they are lighter - they are made to cut light targets better. that does not make my Type XX a "bad sword", or even a "bad cutter" - it is made to take on an armored opponent, and I get enjoyment out of knowing that - even if i won't be using it on one. |
Rackin Frack it! I suppose that means you STILL don't want to part with that sword? (Russ breaking one of the commandments every time he thinks about that type XX) |
NO!
:-)
Russ - I'm thinking that you probably don't need this sword once your Sture comes in -
BTW - have you looked at the stats of the 2 side by side?
Sture
Overall length: 46.5"
Blade length: 33.5"
Blade width (at widest): 2"
Blade thickness (at base): 0.47"
CoG: 2.125" from cross
CoP: 18" from cross
Weight: 4lbs
A&A Custom XX
Overall length: 475"
Blade length: 34"
Blade width (at widest): 2"
Blade thickness (at base): 0.25"
CoG: 4" from cross
Weight: 3.9lbs
The distribution of mass is probably more similar than one might think (given the thickness differences) given the long ricasso on my sword - there is only a slight distal taper over the length of the ricasso, so that a lot of the mass of the blade is concentrated in that region.
I would love to handle the two side by side. maybe one day we will get the chance!
Gordon
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Shane Allee
Industry Professional
Location: South Bend, IN Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 506
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Wow Shane! That is one beautiful sword...
Thanks for the links.
ks
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Jeff Gentry
Location: Columbus ohio Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Folk's
Well thoguht i would ring in here i have been a WMA practioner for about a year now wasn't a collector just liked to read about historic sword's and such, have only test cut a few time's, the last time was an Albion round table in Cincinati didn''t cut worth a dang with anysword, lol, we were cutting pool noddle's and they are some tough cookie's it did give me a chance though to handle some very nice sword's and see how they felt when doing certain technigue's which was of great benefit to me , i learned alot about how the diffrent pommel design's effect how they are gripped and how some blade design's are more forgiving and so forth.
I have noticed in many diffrent place's and discussion's that people do become emotional when discussing "there" sword's i believe it has alot to do with the usualy substantial investment in the hobby, 400 year's ago these sharp pointy object's where used to protect yourself and family so i could see the emotional investment there, i am a pretty good carpenter and i like my hammer it is only a tool (like a sword is a tool) and not everyone like's my hammer, although i don't have an emotional attachment to my hammer or any of my other tool's, this is not the opinion of everyone though.
This is my opinion so take it for what it is worth.
Jeff
“Princes and Lords learn to survive with this art, in earnest and in play. But if you are fearful, then you should not learn to fence. Because a despondent heart will always be defeated, regardless of all skill.”
- Fechtmeister Sigmund Ringeck, 1440
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2004 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Gordon Clark wrote: | | Russ Ellis wrote: | | Gordon Clark wrote: | | Angus Trim wrote: | | .... Depending on type of sword, and "mission" of sword, most swords should cut these bottles {swords meant for heavy armor, or dedicated thrusting swords might not do well}. Generally speaking, most will, even if the owner cannot do it on first getting it. |
There are two more important points -
- Not all swords are supposed to do the things some may want them to do.
- Especially in the hands of someone who is not trained in their use.
I have an A&A custom Type XX that is a good example (picture below) - I just can't get it to "cut" very well -
but when i say cut, I mean water filled milk jugs. It cuts them, but not as well as other sword i own. Now the other swords have flatter blades - they are lighter - they are made to cut light targets better. that does not make my Type XX a "bad sword", or even a "bad cutter" - it is made to take on an armored opponent, and I get enjoyment out of knowing that - even if i won't be using it on one. |
Rackin Frack it! I suppose that means you STILL don't want to part with that sword? (Russ breaking one of the commandments every time he thinks about that type XX) |
NO!
:-)
Russ - I'm thinking that you probably don't need this sword once your Sture comes in -
BTW - have you looked at the stats of the 2 side by side?
Sture
Overall length: 46.5"
Blade length: 33.5"
Blade width (at widest): 2"
Blade thickness (at base): 0.47"
CoG: 2.125" from cross
CoP: 18" from cross
Weight: 4lbs
A&A Custom XX
Overall length: 475"
Blade length: 34"
Blade width (at widest): 2"
Blade thickness (at base): 0.25"
CoG: 4" from cross
Weight: 3.9lbs
The distribution of mass is probably more similar than one might think (given the thickness differences) given the long ricasso on my sword - there is only a slight distal taper over the length of the ricasso, so that a lot of the mass of the blade is concentrated in that region.
I would love to handle the two side by side. maybe one day we will get the chance!
Gordon |
There's a surprise! I guess I'd never really thought about it before. What can I say I'm terribly consistent with what I like.  Fine you be that way if you want to  I guess I'll eventually have to commission Craig and the boys to build me a XX of my own although I guess I'll have to have them do something different then yours which is a shame because I really like the way yours goes together. Any time you are down this way (or I'm up there for that matter) we should make a point of it.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Gordon Clark
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| Posted: Fri 12 Nov, 2004 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: |
There's a surprise! I guess I'd never really thought about it before. What can I say I'm terribly consistent with what I like. Fine you be that way if you want to I guess I'll eventually have to commission Craig and the boys to build me a XX of my own although I guess I'll have to have them do something different then yours which is a shame because I really like the way yours goes together. Any time you are down this way (or I'm up there for that matter) we should make a point of it. |
Thanks Russ - I think it came out really nice too. I have a real "connection" with that sword.
We shall get together at some point!
Gordon
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Jeff Johnson
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| Posted: Mon 15 Nov, 2004 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Seconding Gordon's post about some swords not doing things the same way. I've cut lightweight targets with thin light blades, but there are some swords that I wouldn't even think of bothering to attempt those same cuts with. It doesn't mean those swords are necessarily bad swords, just designed for different uses. For instance - I have this nice heavy falchion. I have no doubts about it's ability against tough targets, like bone, or a neck But against a milk jug? No way.
Pick the right tool for the right job.
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