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Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr, 2012 3:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Modern projectile weapons need oxygen.

Soo - it could simply depend on the location and type of atmosphere (if any). You can't fire a gun on the moon - so where does that leave you? I guess you could throw rocks.. probably quite far with the low gravity, but you'd probably have to get close to finish it off.

Then to move to the fiction part - you could easily invent an energy-based weapon and whatever limitations you want to go with it - and a shielding technology that is effective against those energy weapons (but not physical attacks) - leaving you back to close combat (or throwing rocks!). but it would have to be in slow-motion. All movement on the moon is slow-motion Big Grin
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Matthew Bunker




Location: Somerset UK
Joined: 02 Apr 2009

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr, 2012 4:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian Robson wrote:
Modern projectile weapons need oxygen.

You can't fire a gun on the moon -


Ummm...yes you can. The gunpowder contains it's own oxidizer and it's contained within the round along with the source of ignition.
You'd need to find a way of protecting the weapon from extreme heat or cold, but the lack of atmosphere wouldn't be a problem.

Guns would work much better on the moon, but you'd want to be braced against something solid before you used one.

"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr, 2012 5:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh, I didn't know that (obviously)
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Gregg Sobocinski




Location: Michigan
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr, 2012 10:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How about an irregular-density atmosphere? It would reek havoc on ranged weapons, but not so much for melee weapons. Especially if the different densities swirled and moved like air currents. You could use guns, but it would be like shooting into a horizontally-moving pool of water.

You also may consider having charged particles in the atmosphere which would dissipate concentrated light guns. Perhaps a laser cannon would dissipate into branches of lightning before hitting the ground.
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E Stafford




PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr, 2012 10:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In the bayonet charges mentioned, the soldiers had run out or run low on ammo and so decided to launch an attack. As long as there are guns/ranged weapons, ammo will be a problem and you can run out. Better have a plan B when it does.
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Kurt Scholz





Joined: 09 Dec 2008

Posts: 390

PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gregg Sobocinski wrote:
How about an irregular-density atmosphere? It would reek havoc on ranged weapons, but not so much for melee weapons. Especially if the different densities swirled and moved like air currents. You could use guns, but it would be like shooting into a horizontally-moving pool of water.

You also may consider having charged particles in the atmosphere which would dissipate concentrated light guns. Perhaps a laser cannon would dissipate into branches of lightning before hitting the ground.


You can shoot weapons through a storm like in the last Iraq War.
There was a quote on the problems of collateral damage that the worst weapon is a bomb dropped from the sky and the best a knife for surgical strikes. Going after an enemy with a knife is quite difficult and dangerous, but specialized robots of the future might be able to do that and force humans back to close combat. An intermix between human and machine with movement enhancement might be as well capable of taking out the enemy in close combat. The obvious advantages would be surgical strikes, no loud shot fired and the ability to better gather intelligence, plus fighting in defended positions like the WWI trenches.
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

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PostPosted: Wed 25 Apr, 2012 3:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
I'm going to go with the idea that its darn hard to frame a shot of protagonists engaging each other at a distance of three light years in open space. Once you go to the fantasy that the engagement will occur in frame, why not extend the anachronism and make the filming easier and more exciting by pitting protagonists in close action?


well for one, fact is war is war and it will still include capturing posts

and urban areas which might mean house to house fighting in theory at least, since maybe we dont want to just cleanse all life in the aarea or level the block of houses for whatever reason.

so units will eventiually find themselves fighting at reletively short ranges while hand to hand combat may not be utilised its still fairly personal like alot of action movies nowdays attest aka running around a area in a house, jockying for the best vantage point.


another thing to note is the 'rule of cool' in publications applies VERY much so.

for example in chinese cinema, audiences had been for a long time used to wuxia films, featuring complex and dynamic choereography in combat mostly at close quarters with melee weapons.
apparently when the new style of movies with guns in detective stories, say, the shootout style was seen as fairly boring and static, so of course they mix it up with alot of hand to hand fighting, aka punches and kicks as well as diarming people

plus they created what we in the west might call 'gun fu' aka 'matrix moves' i.e lot of backflipping and ducking/ rolling and other fancy maneuvers.
except using guns

notably the matix used a miliar concept to the one in dune in the fight at the chateau with all the various weapons in the second matrix movie, essentially, neos ability to halt bullets in midair. means he must be killed using swords and such
(why he doesnt use the same ability on swords, i dunno) maybee he cant.

theres also possibility of melee skills when 2 people fight over the weapon to give them an advantage, i.e rolling around punching each other to get hands on a lone pistol.

a melee weapon example of this is in kill bill volume 2. where the bride and elle driver fight each other, and importantly over control of a sword, in particular, stopping elle from even drawing the sword at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xkoAGoOQi4&feature=related
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Henrik Granlid




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Apr 2012

Posts: 103

PostPosted: Wed 25 Apr, 2012 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An enemy with an overwhelming melee presence is probably one of the better bets when combined with individuals capable of matching said enemy in hand to hand.

The korean webcomic Knight Run is a good example of this, where the military is relevant to a very large extent, but where the enemy has developed units that can shield, evade or shrug off ranged weaponry. The response to this are the Knights which are specially trained, often modified people with specialist melee weapons that can dissipate the protective field that keeps the monsters from being shoot-able.

http://www.mangareader.net/knight-run

Likewise, Warhammer 40k has a similar philosophy. It's not so much the lost technology that forces them to rely on melee, but rather melee being a part of your gear due to the manner in which wars are fought. (Worth noting is that even Kasrkin, elite special forces of normal humans that would make even our most elite operatives look like playschool children, use knives and bayonettes rather than chainswords and powerfists).

The need for melee comes from all the different breeds of Xenos and Daemons, there are daemons who can be summoned pretty much straight into your face, who are capable of tearing men in half with their bare hands and wield seven foot swords that sear through armour. You're gonna want SOMETHING to deal with them.

Likewise, Orks have immense muscular density, their weapons are huge slabs of sharp metal, they charge headfirst toward combat, and if the horde is large enough, they will get there, simply because they take about ten times as much fire to put down as an ordinary human. Then there are the fanatics, the Khorne berserkers, the Eldar Harlequins (and all of their cast-specific special forces tbh). There are even jump packs, and those are NOT used for positioning other than "Chainsword to face".

The Tau don't have their own specialised melee units, their bodies are too frail, much like normal humans of the Imperial Guard. But, like the Imperial Guard, the Tau are diverse. The Imperial Guard recruit from many different worlds for all purposes, there are deathworlds that breed survivalist melee monsters of men and women. The Tau, they conquer, and they indoctrinate. The Tau armies include units of Kroot, indoctrinated humans, and whatever other xenos they can find. The Kroot, in turn, are fierce tribes of savages that have huge bird-like, non-flying monsters at their disposal. Think of the Kroot like fearless sand-people with rancors.

In a universe where everything out there can tear your face off, you want something to help prohibit that. Shooting only takes you so far when the enemy is made up of an endless swarm of Tyranids (about a thousand times worse than the bugs of Starship Troopers),a horde of Orks hellbent on having a good brawl, or Eldar ninja-like fiends that either teleport or dodge all over the place until they slice you in half.

Imperial guard actually preffer long-range weapons, because if you can't absolutely stop them before they start coming closer than far mid-range, you're probably dead.

The Space Marines have the bodies to go toe to toe with the nasty things out there, with some of the nastiest even, and to further help empower them, there exist the "human" melee weapons.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Apr, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's an entire mini-subgenre known as "Swords and Spaceships" where technology on the planets has regressed to pre-gunpowder levels but a number of spaceships have survived and remain in occasional use. This page has an interesting excerpt near the bottom:

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/futurehistory.php
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Karl Knisley




PostPosted: Wed 25 Apr, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello
In the Edgar Rice Burroughs, John Carter/Barsoom books. The Martians had an honor code,that even the villians
adhered to... "mostly". If a person faced you with a sword,you had to face them with a sword or a lesser weapon,like a shortsword or dagger.Projectile weapons were only used if someone was shooting at you.
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Graham Shearlaw





Joined: 24 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Apr, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As long as at fits in with the rest of the world then any thing can be used.
maybe both sides lack guns or have a cargo that will go bang ie gas
maybe one of both sides has armor.

if you just stop hand held lazer weapons then you are left with bullets and rockets both can be stoped by the armor of today, so a in sci fi world you can just have nano steel armor or some othr sci fi armor.
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Kurt Scholz





Joined: 09 Dec 2008

Posts: 390

PostPosted: Sat 28 Apr, 2012 6:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are dogs in today's combat that use their teeth and often have their fangs replaced, these are the prototypes of my close combat in the future.

I think many other ideas have to do with the Asian experience being exported. The Chinese military for example tried bullet-proof rattan shields in the Imjin War and overall the militaries of East Asia were better prepared for close combat when their markets were opened for opium, only that this ability was to little avail. I'm still convinced that the current path of military development makes it unlikely to protect against ranged weapons with anything but stealth and faster relocation than targeting movement, while the longing for close combat has much to do with kung fu visual influence and melodramatics.
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