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Michal Plezia
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Mar, 2012 7:53 am    Post subject: Capwell gauntlets question.         Reply with quote

I think I'm not the only one impressed by the black armour made for T. Capwell.
But I have a question about gauntlets.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12591757@N03/218...hotostream

Does the edge of the plate scratch the leather handles of swords?

I've seen many reproductions having this problem.

www.elchon.com

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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Mar, 2012 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would assume not, considering the gauntlets were very carefully reconstructed using evidence compiled between Tobias and Robert. If they do, then it is likely that it would have been a historical issue as well, and therefore can't really be considered a "problem." The gloved hand should protrude enough around all of the metal edges to allow a proper grip on a sword handle, so theoretically the metal should not extend far enough to get in the way.

-Gregory
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JosÚ-Manuel Benito




Location: Medina del Campo, Spain
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Mar, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The armor is amazing:


It would be disappointing to make any change, but ...

First, you can use sword grips' wrapped with threaded wireů

Second, I suggest you some cuts on the gauntlets and put brass bended over the edges, as a trimming. IMO, that modification will not change the essence of the armor.

Regards

Ecce, iam meum patrem video
Ecce, iam meam matrem video
Ecce, iam meas sorores ac meos fratres video
Ecce, iam meam gentem totam ab initio video
Ecce illi me iam vocant
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Mar, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jose,

I assume the original owner of the armor, Tobias Capwell, didn't specify such changes as you suggest because he didn't think they were historically appropriate. Capwell is currently writing a several hundred page volume on English armor (and wrote his Dissertation on the subject!) and is a professional jouster and currently the curator of the arms & armor collection at The Wallace Collection in London. We should look forward to seeing his published work on English armor sooner than later!

Alas, the garniture was sold at auction several years ago. Supposedly the blackened finish was removed and it was highly polished. I've also heard it resides in South Africa and probably won't be seen in public again, unless we're lucky!

-Gregory
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 1:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

*sees the armour* Eek!
hellOOOO nurse!!
woah...... that is amazing..

at least capwell has true cause to say 'tis but a scratch' if he ever gets hit hard during a joust...
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Michal Plezia
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Location: Poland
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 3:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Capwell is a registered member on myArmoury. I've sent him PM, but I think he is a rare visitor (8 posts only).

From my experience- gauntlets with "closed wrists" usually scratch the handles of weapons by the edge of the plate in the area marked on the pic. Is it a mistake of the reproduction or a common thing even for originals? I really want to know the answer, that's why I've started this thread.

www.elchon.com

Polish Guild of Knifemakers

The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
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Ben van Koert




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 3:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In my experience most full gauntlets scratch weapons held and used inside them in some or other way. This counts for any replica I've used and for the few originals I've held as well.
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JosÚ-Manuel Benito




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 3:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the explanation, Gregory.

I'm afraid that I had misunderstood the problem. In any case it's an important researching issue.

Regards

Ecce, iam meum patrem video
Ecce, iam meam matrem video
Ecce, iam meas sorores ac meos fratres video
Ecce, iam meam gentem totam ab initio video
Ecce illi me iam vocant
Et illi me rogant meum locum inter se accipere
Apud Averni portas sunt
Ubi viri fortes Šterne vivant
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Michal Plezia
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 3:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben van Koert wrote:
In my experience most full gauntlets scratch weapons held and used inside them in some or other way. This counts for any replica I've used and for the few originals I've held as well.


Ben- thanks for the answer. If it happened with original pieces back in 15th century, how would have they dealt with it? Wire wrapping on sword handles? Or maybe they didn't care since sword wasn't probably the primary weapon, and other tools of war mostly had wood handles, poles etc. ?

www.elchon.com

Polish Guild of Knifemakers

The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
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Ben van Koert




Location: Veenendaal, the Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think they didn't care much about it, especially if they used it for what it was made for..
I don't care either. Tools are to be used and marks and scratches are a direct result of use. Sometimes the damage is too much and then you replace either the faulty part or the entire tool, just like you would do now with your car, for instance.
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Zac Evans




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 5:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guys who had full armour and cared about their swords looks would've had enough money to replace the handle after a battle. Really, any weapon that was used in a battle/tournament situation would probably need to go for a full renovation afterwards anyway. All of those dinks and all that blood would make scratches on the leather of the hilt a tiny job in comparison.
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 9:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zac Evans wrote:
Guys who had full armour and cared about their swords looks would've had enough money to replace the handle after a battle. Really, any weapon that was used in a battle/tournament situation would probably need to go for a full renovation afterwards anyway. All of those dinks and all that blood would make scratches on the leather of the hilt a tiny job in comparison.


Spot on. Messing up the wrapping on a sword handle would probably be the least of some fellows worries. Gauntlets were also used by people of lesser rank, though, although much more rarely. Perhaps this is partly why during the 15th century we see a prevalence of gauntlets that lack the encompassing wrist section? Not only is it more expensive to create, but probably harder to maintain.

-Gregory
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Aleksei Sosnovski





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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quite a lot of mitten gauntlets rest against the weapon handle/shaft and thus transfer energy of the blow to it rather than wearer's hands. Of course these edges wear handles quite quickly. Though amount of wear greatly depends on the particular weapon. For example I have been using one longsword for over 2 years about once a week and the handle still does not need rewrapping. But leather on a handle of my zweihander is cut and worn through near the pommel though I used this sword tens of times less than the above-mentioned longsword. Wire wrap on the handle also greatly increases its life. In any case, a well-made handle will require too much time to wear through to the point that it becomes unusable or dangerous to the swordsman, the blade will be irrepairably damaged or the swordsman will be killed or injured long before that.
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Wade Allen




Location: North Carolina, USA
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mac and Toby did work very hard on that suit. Every detail seems well founded.
As others have said, I think that all of this stuff required maintenance. A little wear on your weapon grips was a small price to pay.

Here is an example of a slightly later gauntlet - early 16th c. - with a similar profile to the hand:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-207.html

The edge would most likely have run into the weapon handles or hafts as you moved around. The goal seemed to be to provide protection, not to protect your weapons.

I think that most of the edge doesn't directly "ground out" as the SCA folks describe it. They would sit off the hilt of a weapon in normal positions. When hit you hand might compress and the gauntlet could make contact.

Many of my other gauntlets would contact similarly farther away from the wrist. Many of the later gauntlets (not all) don't fit as closely down in the wrist area. Maybe they changed the way they held the weapons a little and wanted a little more room to wiggle.

Wade
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Michal Plezia
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 11:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wade Allen wrote:


I think that most of the edge doesn't directly "ground out" as the SCA folks describe it. They would sit off the hilt of a weapon in normal positions. When hit you hand might compress and the gauntlet could make contact.


I agree. The "problem" appears in certain situations.

Aleksei Sosnovski wrote:
Quite a lot of mitten gauntlets rest against the weapon handle/shaft and thus transfer energy of the blow to it rather than wearer's hands


Interesting observation. Happy

www.elchon.com

Polish Guild of Knifemakers

The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 2:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, wire wrap handles is my guess how to deal with this issue.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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