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Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Sun 29 Jul, 2012 12:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello again.

This thread hasn't seen any replies for some time now, but I will soon be producing more videos of Figuereydo's montante rules and my own free bouting against other weapons. Me and some of the others in our group have invested in upgraded equipment in preparation for the Gothenburg Swordfish tournament this fall, which means we'll be able to fence more earnestly. Happy

To recap, here are all the videos to date:

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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Sun 29 Jul, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i made my little wooden montante a few weeks back just to understand what i read from the memorial and have to say that once a few of the rules are acted out - its a little easier to understand. though i was having trouble with rule IV, having no fencing background until i seen your video emily i didn't fully understand the cut that comes before the thrust.
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Steve Hick




Location: United States
Joined: 28 May 2009

Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sun 29 Jul, 2012 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Emil Andersson wrote:
Hello again.

This thread hasn't seen any replies for some time now, but I will soon be producing more videos of Figuereydo's montante rules and my own free bouting against other weapons. Me and some of the others in our group have invested in upgraded equipment in preparation for the Gothenburg Swordfish tournament this fall, which means we'll be able to fence more earnestly. Happy

To recap, here are all the videos to date:



Emil, I've just looked at your rule IV, really good except you do it better with the bigger sword., you keep you hands more extended during all your moves and your body is even more engaged.

You do it well enough I hope you can appreciate some recommendations for improvement.
There is a moment when your balance breaks as you bring the sword over your head -- your head and shoulders go well backwards - you need to control this with your hips, maybe take a longer stance with the longer weapon.
You need to keep your hands well extended when you bring your sword around behind your head, both to keep yourself from being hit with the quillons and also,not doing so tends to allow you to dip the point of the sword and lose its weight behind you, leading to some of the problems of topic one.
Now that you have this down so well, you need to focus on the sword always being inline when it is between you and your "opponent" only breaking your wrists when the sword finishes its path through their "body" and you either are at risk of planting the tip in the ground, or it is almost at the sides and your wrists and arms don't turn anymore. This is especially important in the plays against multiple opponents when you have to continue the cut through two or more people.

Glad to see folks working on this and see that their interpretations are close to ours. I recommend you play around with the interpretation, where it isn't explicit, from behind might mean just behind the line that divides the back and the front and might be a high guard. Etc.. Makes the play more general and you can work your flow into the techniques more flexible, as Figueiredo recommends.

Steve

Steve Hick
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Steve Hick




Location: United States
Joined: 28 May 2009

Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sun 29 Jul, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Wallace wrote:
i made my little wooden montante a few weeks back just to understand what i read from the memorial and have to say that once a few of the rules are acted out - its a little easier to understand. though i was having trouble with rule IV, having no fencing background until i seen your video emily i didn't fully understand the cut that comes before the thrust.


I am not Emil, but are you referring to the descending forehand blow before the thrust? You can recover the first blow, which rises from a tail guard in this interpretation to back to whence it began or continue up to over your head, and then make a blow to the upper target that is more forward, either horizontal or slightly diagonally down that then begins to turn on your left hand side as if you were going to do another but a backhand blow. But don't break your wrists as you do this and come around with your false edge leading. Then in this interpretation you pull it back into a carry position where the sword is over the right arm as you are turned to the left side and then you bring your hands forward to push the thrust.

I am not saying that any way to do this is wrong, or this is my way, or anything like that. I just recommend you go out there and follow the rule and advice as given, and try some variations. We did not publish interpretations because we didn't know enough to be relatively certain how this might be done and we didn't want to constrain folks to following us. This might not have been a 100% great idea on our parts, as folks want our suggestions, but..... After several years we are starting to piece together more about the details of the method, and will have interpretations in the next book, the Full Montante which were gathering steam in preparation.

Does that help?

Steve

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Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Sun 29 Jul, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I certainly am open for anything to help me improve, Steve. I'll do my best to keep your tips in mind for when I continue with my studying. I'm also all for taking a general stance to the rules as they are described but, since you're here, I do have some trouble with making sense out of rule VIII. This part to be precise:

Figuereido wrote:
While standing still, you will give a talho from behind leaning the body, and another forward putting in the right foot and circling with the montante such that the face ends up turned towards where you gave the first talho, and then giving a revez while standing still and another putting in the left foot, circling around to the right side with the montante, and with the face towards where it was at the beginning.


What is your imagined way of performing these circling motions? What are their use? The circling says that it'll end up with the face (my own face, I assume) in the same direction that I made the first strike in, but that wouldn't require any circling at all since both strikes and the step would be towards the opponent. Is Figueireido describing 360 degree rotations with the second and fourth strikes?

Edit: Anyone else is of course welcome to give advice on this matter, too. Happy

And Daniel, I'm glad to hear that I'm able to help you out. That was a big part of my decision to start recording my progress, to let the rest of the community take part of it for their own benefit as well.
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Steve Hick




Location: United States
Joined: 28 May 2009

Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sun 29 Jul, 2012 1:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Emil Andersson wrote:
I certainly am open for anything to help me improve, Steve. I'll do my best to keep your tips in mind for when I continue with my studying. I'm also all for taking a general stance to the rules as they are described but, since you're here, I do have some trouble with making sense out of rule VIII. This part to be precise:

Figuereido wrote:
While standing still, you will give a talho from behind leaning the body, and another forward putting in the right foot and circling with the montante such that the face ends up turned towards where you gave the first talho, and then giving a revez while standing still and another putting in the left foot, circling around to the right side with the montante, and with the face towards where it was at the beginning.


What is your imagined way of performing these circling motions? What are their use? The circling says that it'll end up with the face (my own face, I assume) in the same direction that I made the first strike in, but that wouldn't require any circling at all since both strikes and the step would be towards the opponent. Is figueiredo describing 360 degree rotations with the second and fourth strikes?

And Daniel, I'm glad to hear that I'm able to help you out. That was a big part of my decision to start recording my progress, to let the rest of the community take part of it for their own benefit as well.


Envision you have two shieldmen before you, one on the right the other to the left. The first blow don't step, but cut at the right one's leg from below, then quickly make a cut forward to cut number one and step to the front left diagonal so you can reach, continuing the cut to bring it over your head so the point is facing towards the right hand shieldman, and the the cross defends you from the left hand opponent, so out in front of you some. And then do the same thing to the other side. You have to be cautious to step across only so far with each so you can reach around to cut each and not cross your legs.

Get two friends with swords and shields and with the first blow threaten the right guy without a step lean towards him (with your upper torso, get more front weighted on your right leg), then step and threaten him and then reach around to do so with the other guy and be turned to do the same in the other direction. In the end of the second cut spiral around your head to threaten guy number one with the point,but have the sword between you and guy number two that he can't whack you in the head right off. If you cut the reverse with the false edge, the blows just turn one into the other and you end up coiling your body at the end of the stroke for the return.

The plays for shieldmen in Godinho are simpler and the description more lengthy so it is easier to understand, we are going to publish those somewhere, somehow, sometime.

Steve

Steve Hick
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Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Thu 23 Aug, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I did some more montante fencing against longswords today. I didn't produce any video material of it, but I've gotten away with some new experiences. For reference, my montante trainer is about a foot longer than the longswords I fenced against.

I decided to stay away from bigger, sweeping cuts and instead focus on keeping the point in presence. The leverage of the long handle works very well for a snapping type of cut from the elbows, and they're also easy to make in any direction with some handiwork. This way of fencing also made the reach advantage even more noticeable as the longsword could not counter effectively if it parried a strike. I felt like I could pressure the opponent more effectively this way. I also tried gripping the ricasso with one hand and placing the other hand around the pommel to use the sword like a small spear, and it was also effective. The front arm was a bit exposed to cuts since the reach advantage was lessened, but rapier-like disengages with the tip were quite easy to perform. I felt that one-handed thrusts was a good tool to use here.

I will, however, add that neither me or my training partners have trained for delivering or absorbing very hard hits. I imagine that full-force sweeping blows from a montante would be too powerful to stop with any degree of assurance, but I'm not quite willing to put that much strength into it, atleast not with the trainer I'm currently using. Because of this I so far prefer keeping the weapon in smaller, tighter motions between myself and the opponent.
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Tim Rivera





Joined: 22 Mar 2010

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Thu 23 Aug, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good to hear about your experiences, and that things are improving for you. I know Mendoza advises that the montante is held with one hand on the recazo, and another on the pommel, although Godinho advises you not to. While Godinho says to forgo all cuts against another montante, I'm not sure what his advice would be against a longsword; I assume it would be to keep cutting hard (which I completely understand your reluctance to do), but keeping to thrusts is much safer for both of you.
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Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

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PostPosted: Thu 23 Aug, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for the insight, Tim. I'm sure I'll be able to find a balance between weapon-appropriate power and training safety eventually.

Do you know where I might be able to read the words of authors other than Figueyredo and Alfieri?
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Tim Rivera





Joined: 22 Mar 2010

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PostPosted: Thu 23 Aug, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Emil Andersson wrote:
Do you know where I might be able to read the words of authors other than Figueyredo and Alfieri?


Not in detail, sorry. If you can read Spanish, there are sparse descriptions rules of de Paredes and anonymous rules scribbled in margin notes online. Other than that, it's a long wait for the full montante book to come out.
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Steve Hick




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Aug, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim Rivera wrote:
Good to hear about your experiences, and that things are improving for you. I know Mendoza advises that the montante is held with one hand on the recazo, and another on the pommel, although Godinho advises you not to. While Godinho says to forgo all cuts against another montante, I'm not sure what his advice would be against a longsword; I assume it would be to keep cutting hard (which I completely understand your reluctance to do), but keeping to thrusts is much safer for both of you.


Tim,

While this will mean little to anyone but we few, I suspect it depends on the difference between the measure of proportion from the proportionate measure, you could use a revez or tajo as a follow up given an extrapolation to a single opponent within range who has a weapon that cannot harm you when you can harm them. As long as you can avoid subjection - that is not allowing the opponent to find your montante.

Steve

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Tim Rivera





Joined: 22 Mar 2010

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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2012 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve Hick wrote:
While this will mean little to anyone but we few, I suspect it depends on the difference between the measure of proportion from the proportionate measure, you could use a revez or tajo as a follow up given an extrapolation to a single opponent within range who has a weapon that cannot harm you when you can harm them. As long as you can avoid subjection - that is not allowing the opponent to find your montante.


I suspect the same as well, although Godinho only seems to be concerned about subjection when using the montante like a single-handed sword.
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Steve Hick




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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2012 8:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim Rivera wrote:
Steve Hick wrote:
While this will mean little to anyone but we few, I suspect it depends on the difference between the measure of proportion from the proportionate measure, you could use a revez or tajo as a follow up given an extrapolation to a single opponent within range who has a weapon that cannot harm you when you can harm them. As long as you can avoid subjection - that is not allowing the opponent to find your montante.


I suspect the same as well, although Godinho only seems to be concerned about subjection when using the montante like a single-handed sword.


To clarify this, this would be against a single opponent with the longsword.

I think you could use either set of rules against a long sword.

You would have an additional foot and 1/2 of length (2 vara = 65.8 inches vs. 48 inches) with 1/3 of that the extra length of the handle -- so 10 inches more measure in which to strike. So you could play against a longsword as you would against a single sword (6/5 of a vara or 41 inches with 5 of that as being the shorter grip, so 36 inches of reach versus 38) or shortening the sword by grabbing the ricazo, you would then have the effective measure for the montante be down to about 42 inches or so.

And frankly the play of the single sword is not that much different from that of the long sword once you've found the other's weapon, although theoretically it is more similar to Italian play.

Steve Hick
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Tim Rivera





Joined: 22 Mar 2010

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve Hick wrote:
And frankly the play of the single sword is not that much different from that of the long sword once you've found the other's weapon, although theoretically it is more similar to Italian play.


I don't know much about long sword or Italian play, but from what I've seen, excluding the cuts from single sword play would make it look much different from longsword.
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Steve Hick




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim Rivera wrote:
Emil Andersson wrote:
Do you know where I might be able to read the words of authors other than Figueyredo and Alfieri?


Not in detail, sorry. If you can read Spanish, there are sparse descriptions rules of de Paredes and anonymous rules scribbled in margin notes online. Other than that, it's a long wait for the full montante book to come out.


Nota bene folks!

We are, as a group (Tim is the major contributor for much of it), working on The Full Montante, that will provide transcriptions, translations and interpretations of all the montante material of which we know. Plus some historical material about the masters and descriptions of fights with the montante, often against many.

Steve

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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Nov, 2012 9:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Last weekend a couple of friends from my old (now largely defunct) WMA group were in town, so we decided to hook up and fool around a little. For the previous few weeks we had been having e-mail discussions about the montante, so naturally it was one of the things we decided to try out even though none of us had had any experience whatsoever with it. We even decided to make a short video out of the rule we found most interesting (I'm the guy behind the camera):

Rule IV Composed

Any idea of whether we're heading anywhere near the right direction? We mostly made it up to help us discuss the other rules for fighting multiple opponents in different directions, particularly XII simple and composed. We may make another video of XII simple next week but XII composed is proving to be just a bit too opaque for the moment. Is it possible that the thrusts and blows in this one are aimed not at two opposing directions but four?
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Tim Rivera





Joined: 22 Mar 2010

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PostPosted: Tue 06 Nov, 2012 10:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Any idea of whether we're heading anywhere near the right direction?


The extra step in there before the thrust significantly changes range, which is very important with a montante (especially if it's a full step instead of the half-step mentioned in the video description, as it seemed to turn into a full step in practice). One, it reduces the reach of the thrust, which means that unless the opponent following you is hot on your heels, you're not likely to threaten him, much less reach him. More importantly, though, is that you're increasing your proximity to the opponent you're about to turn your back on, without attacking. I haven't tried this interpretation with partners, but it seems to me that these two taken together would allow your opponents to press in on you significantly more than performing the footwork as described by Figueiredo.


Tim
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Nov, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Any idea of how to put the sword in place for the rearwards thrust without sliding the left foot along, then? We've tried getting the sword back to a position similar to Meyer's Zornhut while pretending to threaten the first opponent with a third talho before stepping back with the thrust. The phrasing makes sense, but it's still pretty difficult to execute fluidly without fumbling halfway through the turn. Maybe we'll try making a second version of that video after more practice.
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Tim Rivera





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PostPosted: Wed 07 Nov, 2012 7:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Any idea of how to put the sword in place for the rearwards thrust without sliding the left foot along, then? We've tried getting the sword back to a position similar to Meyer's Zornhut while pretending to threaten the first opponent with a third talho before stepping back with the thrust. The phrasing makes sense, but it's still pretty difficult to execute fluidly without fumbling halfway through the turn. Maybe we'll try making a second version of that video after more practice.


I don't have difficulty with the turn, so it's hard for me to advise you without knowing specifically what the problem is. The only thing that occurs to me is that you might be pivoting around your left foot when you step forward with the second talho, rather than simply stepping forward. That would make stepping backwards very difficult, as the left leg is now in the way. Eric or Steve would be better suited to advise you, as they have experience teaching Figueiredo's montante to others.


Tim
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Nov, 2012 5:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There were just the two of us this time and neither of us felt confident enough to shoot the interpretation of Rule XII Simple yet, so we settled for the revised version of Rule IV Composed instead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSnLedHLBXs

Still awkward (and not yet as fluid as the other version with the extra step), but we hope it looks a little bit closer to the intent of the original texts. We might yet make a third version where all the cuts are descending, which makes the initial movement of the rule more natural--just two big whirls around the head-- but may slightly complicate the recovery to the next segment after the final revez.)


While we're at it, I have two questions about the montante and its techniques in general. The first is about the initial position with the sword resting in a guard. We don't really have any sources with a clear explanation or illustration of what the guards look like, do we? The video interpretations I've seen so far tend to favour lower guards like the tail guard, which (I think) can be rationalised by positing that the weight of the montante at rest would be more easily borne in such low positions, but I can't help wondering if any Iberian texts also describe higher guards (perhaps the equivalents of the Vom Tag and the higher Hengen) that might be worth inserting into our interpretations.

The second is about the "Fly-swatter." Is it the ascending figure-eight Emil does several times during the large measure/Zufechten segments (is there a Spanish/Portuguese name for it?) in this sparring video? It may be a bit redundant in these bouts but the sequence seems to be a good way to intimidate an opponent into staying outside the reach of the montante while the montante-wielder is thinking up a new plan of attack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYIFFhyL3j8
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