[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Ken Speed]

All,

I've been following this thread and enjoying it immensely and learning a lot. I have to admit that I have never in my life handled a "viking sword" so I don't feel I can speak about them with any credibility. However, I have used an almighty variety of hand tools in my life and I think we can all agree that a sword is, simply, a tool.

I have a problem with the "hammer grip" terminology because one grips different hammers differently and differently depending on what you are doing with the hammer. I don't hold or swing a 22 ounce framing hammer even remotely the same as the 13 ounce hammer I use for finish work. For that matter, I don't hold or swing a hatchet in exactly the same way I do a hammer because in one case I'm hitting something and in the other case I'm cutting something. I see no reason to assume that the vikings didn't grip the sword hatchet style (very close to the end of the grip) to get the wrist action/snap into the swing when it was appropriate to do so and in what is being referred to as the hammer style when that is appropriate. It would seem to me that the wrist/snap would be very desirable when cutting at an unarmored or lightly armored opponent. I would expect that the disk pommel on the new valkerie and Knud would be very well adapted to this grip.

It makes perfect sense to me that more Vikings were armed with axes and spear than swords. They were poor, that's why they were stealing. I can visualize using a shield and axe or a shield and sword but a shield and spear seems brutally clumsy and to be in the front of a shield wall with a spear and shield seems suicidal.


Thanks to everyone who has posted on this topic it has been educational.


Ken Speed

[Ville Vinje]

[D Wick]

I was actually waiting to return home (I'm en route as we speak, in a cafe with free wireless) to compile a full list of Saex-finds.
But thank you, I was going to list the finds specifically, but yes, there is evidence from the 5th C-onwards for daggers, saexes, etc. according to period. It is one thing that becomes obvious to reenactors and experimental archeologists and historians very early on: daggers, saexes and knives have a distinct (and not assumedly secondary) role on the battlefield.
The average saex has a distinct, rigid stabbing point, something the Romans had demonstrated time and time again works well in the press of a melee.
As for the comment that a spear seems suicidal in a shield-wall; yes, in theory, it does.
Because automatically we think as individuals, and we also think in terms of a vicious direct foe and direct fighting; but in reality (as chess demonstrates neatly) the real threat is diagonal. Most men die from a spear-thrust delivered from a man two steps to the left, aimed at the neck, face or exposed arm-pit as the man himself makes his thrust. When we imagine an enemy charging in close it is easy to imagine the clumsy spear thudding into his shield and the warrior stepping forward and crashing his axe down. In reality, unless his comrades are unspeakably brave and well-organised, they will hang back at the killing distance (a spear thrust's length) as the suicidal maniac steps out of the shieldwall and exposes his left and right flanks. Having done this myself at both Regia shows and my own group's shows, I can assure you that you become the world's largest pincushion.
If a unit of men drive forward in a continous shield-wall and slam home, the spear is abandoned and a saex or knife drawn. Even then, men in the second and third rank can continue jabbing with spears, meaning that the man in their front rank needs to keep his shield high and his head low; hence the reason for sliding a saex below his shield-rim.
This may seem a very formulaic description, but most shield-wall combat falls down to simple formulas. The real 'cut and thrust' of the battle is more a question of your skill, speed, and notably team-work. A well-drilled unit of men will know when their comrade is 'opening up' an enemy, and will instinctively fight together a single unit. Men unaccustomed to fighting together tend to think as individuals, and die as such.
(Please note this is based on reenactment combat experience and interpretations of texts and images; notably the Bayeux Tapestry, the descriptions of battle in the Poem of Maldon etc. and is not offered as historical fact but historical interpretation)

[Travis C.]

[Ken Speed]

Mr. Wick,

You wrote, "As for the comment that a spear seems suicidal in a shield-wall; yes, in theory, it does." That isn't exactly what I said, I said being in the FRONT of a shield wall with a spear and shield seemed suicidal. You go on to say that the spear would be dropped when things get close, so I think we are more in agreement than not.

I have to admit that in a more open fight, I still think that a spear and shield would be clumsy. I'm not trying to badmouth the spear, quite the contrary, I just see the spear as a two handed weapon. When I practiced Aikido, we practiced with bokken and jos; wooden swords and short staffs about 4 ft. long. I really liked the staff, much more than the bokken, but almost all the moves with the staff were executed with both hands. I watched a display of two antagonists fighting with halberds a while ago and I was interested to note that many of their moves were very similar to those I had learned with the short staff.

Neither of us have ever been in a real shield wall and we almost certainly never will. A fact for which we should be immensely grateful. I would think it would be like being a football lineman or being in a rugby scrum with lots of sharp pointy things thrown in. It must have been a hideous way to have to fight.

Best regards,



Ken

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

[Bob Burns]

Peter Johnssons illustration in the initial post is the only version of gripping a viking sword that makes sense to me personally. In fact, I find that at the start of a cutting motion, one can hold the sword in the hammer style and "slip the grip" so that the pommel arrives at the grip in Peter's illustration at the point of impact, thereby increasing the power of the cut.
At present I have only two viking swords, the Albion Berserkr and the Hanwei Godfred Viking Sword and the above description works very well for me when either just practicing, or cutting jugs and cardboard.
If I were to maintain a hammer grip all the way through the cutting stroke then the inside edge of the pommel will dig into the heel of my palm causing a not so pleasant sensation.
Although it is not necessary to "slip the grip", one can start and finish in the fashion of grip that Peter illustrates, but when the grip is slipped from hammer style into Peter's illustration at the point of impact, it is very much like the snap of a karate punch or a boxer's jab, which done correctly will cause a much more powerful strike. In that it is not so much as the strength in a strike but the snap of the strike at impact which causes the impact to penetrate further into the point of impact targeted on the opponent.
Something like a golfer's swing, though I am no golfer, I once had this analogy explained to me by a 7th degree Tae Kwon Do master.

SIncerely,

Bob

[Gavin Kisebach]

I have to agree with D Wick, from what I have seen in the ubiquitous SCA shieldwall it is almost always the spearman to my right that kills me. When I as a shieldmen get the occasional kill it is almost invariably a quick stroke diagonally to a distracted opponent on my right. The chess connection is very astute, an excellent point.

When I do venture out from behind my shield, the strike is usually a quick downward stroke at full extension and then a hasty retreat to the safety of the shield. Using a 34 inch sword [read: stick] this means that a hammer grip would fall short, so I use a relaxed handshake grip to get all of the reach I can.

[D Wick]

[Lafayette C Curtis]

[Ben C.]

I'd be hesitant to try to relate too much of what you learn in aikido to how samurai and other Japanese warriors really fought. akido is a relatively modern style based off jujutsu that is more of a art form than a real fighting style. The same can be said about the modern versions of the majority of traditional martial arts but aikido especially suffers from it's creator's (Morihei Ueshiba) forced implementation of his spiritual and philosophical beliefs. I can't say a lot about he weapons training but the grappling side of the art is definitely lacking. I've lived in Japan for 5 years and competed in judo at state level here for 2, and I've still yet to encounter an aikido practitioner who was really capable at grappling.

I'm not trying to put down aikido practitioners in general but based on the impracticability of the grappling techniques, the weapons training too is unlikely to be too similar with what was actually used in battle in previous centuries.

[J.D. Crawford]

I have just skimmed through this entire thread, and I think a couple of people have already touched on what I believe is the real mystery: since you can use a handshake grip just as well with a more comfortable pommel (for example a wide flat disc), why did the vikings prefer those danged uncomfortable pommels with the straight, squarish edged 'upper guards'?

In particular, why the general switch in style between the viking era and the medieval era? One possibility is that the fashion was influenced by cultural and psychological factors that have nothing to do with functional aspects of swordsmanship. One such factor worth considering has to be the conversion of Northern Europe to Christianity.

Many would agree that the cruciform shape of the later medieval sword was strongly influenced by Christian imagery. Personally, I find a long straight cross to be awkward, but it looks more like a crucifix than a sword with a curved cross, and presumably this was important to the highly religious Christian warrior. But what about the Vikings?

Viking age warriors were not Atheists, they were Pagans. Their pommels may have had some religious imagery we don't know about. Or...what about all those references to Vikings needing to die with their weapon in hand in order to go to Valhalla? If this is true, wouldn't that be a powerful motivation to prefer a grip that would not slip out of your hand? One thing about those wide angular pommels...they feel and look like they would be very hard to loose hold of, no matter how bloody and slippery. Imagine how a Viking would fear dropping his 'ancestral heirloom' into the water in sea battle and then be killed empty handed...only to go straight to Viking hell! (Before dismissing this as trivial nonsense, think of the people who are killing themselves and others in the world right now in order to go to their own version of heaven).

These particular arguments may be nonsense, but I think the general point is harder to dismiss - then, as now, fashion is dictated by both practical and non-practical market factors. To really understand those factors, it may not be enough to understand the fighting techniques of the Viking age warrior; we need to understand his whole world-view.

[Bob Burns]

In my own experience with the so called "handshake grip" as illustrated by Peter Johnsson, after having practiced for some time, I have never remotely felt or sensed that I was losing my grip. I've used this grip with my Berserkr to cut through 4 one gallon jugs, set side by side with great success and never did I come close to losing my grip.
I am only speaking for myself, as I am NO sword expert!

Bob

[Ken Speed]

Ben Condon wrote some fairly critical things about Aikido and this is not the forum to discuss the variations of the martial arts but to say Aikidoka are not grapplers is like saying that tap dancers can't do ballet. Tap dancing isn't ballet and Aikido isn't grappling. Suffice it to say that if an aikido practitioner destroys an attacker's elbow and smashes their head face first into the ground which is literally the first technique in Aikido the attacker is just as destroyed as if a Jujitsu practitioner did it. If the jo techniques of Aikido are "impractical" and they are similar to the techniques I saw the western martial arts practitioners use with the halberd does it not then follow that their techniques were impractical too? I practiced Judo prior to Aikido and I have experienced throws, chokes and joint locks in Aikido that make anything I experienced in Judo seem like child's play.

It is true that there are styles of Aikido some very combative and some much less so. It is also true that Judo and Aikido were both off shoots of Jujitsu that split off about the same time and there seems to be a tension between the practitioners to this day.


Ken Speed

[Ken Speed]

[Lafayette Curtis wrote, "... a light spear wielded in one hand combined with a shield held almost edge-on to the enemy (as in Stephen hand's interpretation of single combat with sword and shield) can be a deadly and very effective combination. "

OK, my point in being here is to have fun and to learn. I have to admit I have a tough time getting my head around the idea of using a spear and a shield especially what I understand the Viking style of spear was which was not, I believe, the light one-handed weapon you are describing. I still think that a six or seven foot long fairly heavy spear (which is what I understand Viking spears to be like) and a 30" diameter round wooden shield to be an ungainly combination. I'm sure it would be for me. I guess the problem is I have to imagine what it would be like, I've never seen it, I've never seen a shield wall reenactment either so I'm trying to visualize and extrapolate from what I have done to get a sense of what it was/is like.

Yes, we are getting off topic in some ways but it relates to how the Vikings fought which relates to how they held their swords and maybe it relates to why the wealthier Vikings had swords (they worked better but were expensive) and the poorer ones had spears. Now there's an interesting question. Expressed in terms understandable today, how much would a Viking have had to pay for a decent sword as opposed to stealing or looting a corpse for one? Hey, you have to get a sword before you can grip it, right?


Best regards,


Ken Speed

[D Wick]

[Jean Thibodeau]

[D Wick]

[quote="Jean Thibodeau"]

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]